Bohuslav Martinů (1890-1959)

Started by bhodges, October 04, 2007, 08:27:06 AM

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Mirror Image

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on July 08, 2011, 05:06:28 PM
Ah, thank you for the info. So, one of those BBC music mag one-offs. I wonder what it's like....?

I haven't heard it but I do own the Belohvalek recording on Supraphon with the Prague Symphony Orchestra. From the one review I've read of his BBC performance, it is quite negative. The reviewer gives it a one-star citing that the choice of English wasn't particularly noteworthy. I would stick to the Supraphon recording.

cilgwyn

I tend to agree with you MI. A pity they made such a rash decision. I seem to remember the Marco Polo was quite good,but I think I'll go with the Supraphon this time around. On the plus side,I wish BBC Music Mag would do rarer works like Gilgamesh more often. A certain mammoth offering at the Proms this year might even sell a few extra copies of their glossy rag (I'm an IRR man myself).

karlhenning

Well, dunning a performance because of translation is a curious one-issue-voter tic.  I'd be interested in any comment on the quality of the performance . . . .

not edward

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 12, 2011, 05:23:00 AM
Well, dunning a performance because of translation is a curious one-issue-voter tic.  I'd be interested in any comment on the quality of the performance . . . .
I've never had a problem with it, but as it's my only Gilgamesh, I'd be loath to comment further. I should probably investigate the Supraphon issue, given that it's comparatively inexpensive, but there's so many Martinu works that have claims to my attention. I've found the sheer quantity of Martinu gets in the way of exploring; there are so many good pieces that some get left by the wayside. Plus there's that handful of pieces that are so outstanding that I keep ending up listening to them instead: the 3rd and 6th symphonies; Frescoes; Parables; the Double Concerto; the concerto for violin, piano and orchestra; the 4th piano concerto; Memorial to Lidice; the Nonet....
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
-- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

Mirror Image

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 12, 2011, 05:23:00 AM
Well, dunning a performance because of translation is a curious one-issue-voter tic.  I'd be interested in any comment on the quality of the performance . . . .

I agree to some extent, Karl, but I have to say that for somebody's first recording of Gilgamesh I do hope they choose the original Czech version of the work because this was, after all, how Martinu intended for us to hear the work.

Mirror Image

Quote from: cilgwyn on July 12, 2011, 12:14:52 AM
I tend to agree with you MI. A pity they made such a rash decision. I seem to remember the Marco Polo was quite good,but I think I'll go with the Supraphon this time around. On the plus side,I wish BBC Music Mag would do rarer works like Gilgamesh more often. A certain mammoth offering at the Proms this year might even sell a few extra copies of their glossy rag (I'm an IRR man myself).

I only own the Belohlavek recording on Supraphon and quite honestly I don't see a need to supplement it with another recording. It's just that satisfactory.

Mirror Image

Quote from: edward on July 12, 2011, 05:32:39 AM
I've never had a problem with it, but as it's my only Gilgamesh, I'd be loath to comment further. I should probably investigate the Supraphon issue, given that it's comparatively inexpensive, but there's so many Martinu works that have claims to my attention. I've found the sheer quantity of Martinu gets in the way of exploring; there are so many good pieces that some get left by the wayside. Plus there's that handful of pieces that are so outstanding that I keep ending up listening to them instead: the 3rd and 6th symphonies; Frescoes; Parables; the Double Concerto; the concerto for violin, piano and orchestra; the 4th piano concerto; Memorial to Lidice; the Nonet....

I understand what you mean Edward, but there are many more jewels to be discovered. There's many works you didn't list like his song cycles Magic Nights and Nipponari, which only exist in one recording (w/ Belohlavek, Prague Symphony Orchestra), the cello concerti, Czech Rhapsody, Sinfonietta la Jolla, Estampes (this is top-drawer Martinu all the way), among others. Since you're already familiar enough many of his works, I would go ahead and take the plunge into some more unknown Martinu.

Mirror Image

I sent Greg (one of our resident Martinu fanatics) a PM last night and we both shared and compared collections last night, here is my current Martinu collection. Any suggestions of where to go next would be welcome:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Complete Symphonies, Vaclav Neumann, CzPO, Supraphon
-Complete Symphonies, Vladimir Valek, Prague Radio Symphony Orchestra, Supraphon
-Complete Symphonies, Bryden Thomson, Royal Scottish National Orch., Chandos
-Complete Symphonies, Neeme Jarvi, Bamberg Symphony Orch., BIS
-Piano Concertos 1-5, Emil Leichner, Jiri Belohlavek, CzPO, Supraphon
-Epic of Gilgamesh, Jiri Belohlavek, Prague Symphony Orch., Supraphon
-Symphonies Nos. 3 & 4, Jiri Belohlavek, CzPO, Supraphon
-Symphonies Nos. 5 & 6, Jiri Belohlavek, CzPO, Supraphon
-Field Mass, Memorial to Lidice, Symphony No. 4, Jiri Belohlavek, CzPO, Chandos
-Symphony No. 1, Concerto for Double String Orchestra, Jiri Beloholavek, CzPO, Chandos
-Symphony  No. 6 (couples with Janacek, Suk), Jiri Belohlavek, CzPO, Chandos
-Overture, Rhapsody, Sinfonia concertante, Parables, Jiri Belohlavek, CzPO, Supraphon
-Cello Concertos, Cello Concertino, Raphael Wallfisch, Jiri Belohlavek, CzPO, Chandos
-Magic Nights, Nipponari, Czech Rhapsody, Jiri Belohlavek, Prague Symphony Orch., Supraphon
-The Spectre's Bride, The Romance of the Dandelions, The Primrose, Jiri Belohlavek, Brno Philharmonic Orch., Supraphon
-Violin Concerto No. 2, Toccata e due canzoni, Isabelle Faust, Jiri Belohlavek, Prague Philharmonia, Harmonia Mundi
-Three Fragments from "Julietta," Suite from Julietta, Magdalena Kozená, Charles Mackerras,  CzPO, Supraphon
-Complete String Quartets, Panocha Quartet, Supraphon
-Complete Music for Violin and Orchestra, Vols. 1-4, Christopher Hogwood, CzPO, Hyperion
-Le Raid merveilleux; La Revue de cuisine; On tourne!, Christopher Hogwood, CzPO, Supraphon
-La revue de cuisine, Merry Christmas 1941, Sinfonietta 'La Jolla,' Toccata e due canzoni, Christopher Hogwood, CzPO, Supraphon
-Sinfonietta la Jolla; Toccata e due Canzoni; Concerto Grosso, Ondrej Kukal, Prague Chamber Orch., Supraphon
-Cello Concertos, Angelica May, Vaclav Neumann, CzPO, Supraphon
-Violin Concertos, Josef Suk, Vaclav Neumann, CzPO, Supraphon
-Piano Quintets 1 & 2, Martinu Quartet, Naxos
-Symphonies 5 & 6, Karel Ancerl, CzPO, Supraphon
-Field Mass, Double Concerto, Les Fresques de Piero della Francesca, Charles Mackerras, CzPO, Prague Radio Symphony, Supraphon

Bought tonight:

-Julietta (A Dream Book), Jaroslav Krombholc, Prague National Theatre Orch. Supraphon
-The Greek Passion, Charles Mackerras, Kühn Children's Chorus, Czech Philharmonic Chorus, Brno Philharmonic, Supraphon

Luke

Don' worry, MI, I"m pretty sure Edward knows his Martinu inside out and back to front. I agree with the potted list he made, too (I'd add a couple of other works, maybe). But that Magic Nights disc you often mention - well, certainly the music is very pleasant, and it's definitely well worth hearing, espeically for a Martinu fan (I remember reading about those songs in Safranek's biography years ago, before they'd ever been recorded, and salivating at the descriptions of them; the Czech Rhapsody OTOH I've known for more than two decades). But I can't agree that anything on that disc is top draw, first rank Martinu, nor is it stylistically typical of him, and so I'd hesitate about putting it high up a list of if-you-want-to-get-into-Martinu-try-this recommendations. All IMO of course.

Luke

As for recommendations I'd add - the ones I always do, and others too. I only say them again because I didn't see them on your list.

The Hyperion twofer of chamber music
[asin]B000007NE9[/asin]

The Supraphon recording of the late chamber cantatas.
[asin]B002DMIIUW[/asin]

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 12, 2011, 07:56:02 AM
I understand what you mean Edward, but there are many more jewels to be discovered. There's many works you didn't list like his song cycles Magic Nights and Nipponari, which only exist in one recording (w/ Belohlavek, Prague Symphony Orchestra), the cello concerti, Czech Rhapsody, Sinfonietta la Jolla, Estampes (this is top-drawer Martinu all the way), among others. Since you're already familiar enough many of his works, I would go ahead and take the plunge into some more unknown Martinu.

I have found myself lately searching for as much chamber music of Martinu as possible. I really haven't come across a chamber piece of his I didn't enjoy.
Here are two discs that I highly recommend.

[asin]B000001490[/asin]
[asin]B0000014AR[/asin]


karlhenning

Quote from: Luke on July 12, 2011, 08:11:02 AM
As for recommendations I'd add - the ones I always do, and others too. I only say them again because I didn't see them on your list.

The Hyperion twofer of chamber music
[asin]B000007NE9[/asin]

The Supraphon recording of the late chamber cantatas.
[asin]B002DMIIUW[/asin]

I heeded these recommendations, and am glad so to have done. (Just saying.)

Mirror Image

Quote from: Luke on July 12, 2011, 08:06:44 AM
Don' worry, MI, I"m pretty sure Edward knows his Martinu inside out and back to front. I agree with the potted list he made, too (I'd add a couple of other works, maybe). But that Magic Nights disc you often mention - well, certainly the music is very pleasant, and it's definitely well worth hearing, espeically for a Martinu fan (I remember reading about those songs in Safranek's biography years ago, before they'd ever been recorded, and salivating at the descriptions of them; the Czech Rhapsody OTOH I've known for more than two decades). But I can't agree that anything on that disc is top draw, first rank Martinu, nor is it stylistically typical of him, and so I'd hesitate about putting it high up a list of if-you-want-to-get-into-Martinu-try-this recommendations. All IMO of course.

I disagree. I think the disc containing Magic Nights, Nipponari, and Czech Rhapsody are top-drawer Martinu. Are they stylistically different from a lot of his music? Of course they are but that is what makes them so compelling I think. The fact that Martinu's music can't be pigeon-holed is, in itself, one of the characteristics a fan of Martinu's music must come to terms with. These works are still unmistakably Martinu whether he composed them in his 20s or later in life.

So in closing, you disagreed with these works quality, I happy challenged your assertions.

Luke

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 12, 2011, 08:21:45 AM
I disagree. I think the disc containing Magic Nights, Nipponari, and Czech Rhapsody are top-drawer Martinu. Are they stylistically different from a lot of his music? Of course they are but that is what makes them so compelling I think. The fact that Martinu's music can't be pigeon-holed is, in itself, one of the characteristics a fan of Martinu's music must come to terms with. These works are still unmistakably Martinu whether he composed them in his 20s or later in life.

So in closing, you disagreed with these works quality, I happy challenged your assertions.

That's fine. And I repeat - I really do like that disc a lot too. Very pleased I bought it, and in particular it was nice to hear those two tempting-sounding song cycles at last. But if it was the only Martinu I knew, I would have a very skewed picture of who he was as a composer, and I might well not explore more. Because my reaction, hearing that disc for the first time was - interesting, listen to all the inlfuences he hasn't shed yet, here's a bit of Debussy, here's a bit of Tchaikovsky, that bit sounds rather undigested.... So if I hadn't already known how much more personal Martinu's voice (his many voices) was/were to become I would possibly have thought 'nice, but not worth exploring further.'

So the reason I wrote the last post, and this one, is only because I worry about this fine disc of early Martinu being a put forward as a prime get-to-know-him-this-way recommendation. I am more than aware, of course, of Martinu's many different styles. But the music on this disc isn't representative of any of those styles, it's representative of a composer slowly finding his voice and shedding voices which aren't his. Whatever you say, the music here, despite it's seductive surfaces, is not top-notch, and quite understandably so - he was a young composer learning his craft. And so technically, formally, orchestrally, they can be quite clumsy - which is not just my opinion. In fact, Martinu himself called the Czech Rhapsody amateurish!

Mirror Image

#374
Quote from: Luke on July 12, 2011, 08:47:50 AM
That's fine. And I repeat - I really do like that disc a lot too. Very pleased I bought it, and in particular it was nice to hear those two tempting-sounding song cycles at last. But if it was the only Martinu I knew, I would have a very skewed picture of who he was as a composer, and I might well not explore more. Because my reaction, hearing that disc for the first time was - interesting, listen to all the inlfuences he hasn't shed yet, here's a bit of Debussy, here's a bit of Tchaikovsky, that bit sounds rather undigested.... So if I hadn't already known how much more personal Martinu's voice (his many voices) was/were to become I would possibly have thought 'nice, but not worth exploring further.'

So the reason I wrote the last post, and this one, is only because I worry about this fine disc of early Martinu being a put forward as a prime get-to-know-him-this-way recommendation. I am more than aware, of course, of Martinu's many different styles. But the music on this disc isn't representative of any of those styles, it's representative of a composer slowly finding his voice and shedding voices which aren't his. Whatever you say, the music here, despite it's seductive surfaces, is not top-notch, and quite understandably so - he was a young composer learning his craft. And so technically, formally, orchestrally, they can be quite clumsy - which is not just my opinion. In fact, Martinu himself called the Czech Rhapsody amateurish!

What a composer thinks of their own music never meant much to me. Hell, Lutoslawski hated Concerto for Orchestra. Lord knows why he did, but he did!

I don't think your criticism of Martinu's early music is a fair one. All composers have influences that they carry with them throughout their lives. Even late Martinu has influences: Stravinsky particularly and he even reintroduces those Debussyian shadings of sound in works like Parables and Estampes for example. If this recording in question was the only Martinu recording you heard, then you would be doing yourself and only yourself an injustice in not pursuing his music further. Martinu, as I stated before, cannot be pigeon-holed. All I'm saying this is a disc worth acquiring whether one is new to Martinu or not.

Luke

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 12, 2011, 08:58:45 AM
What a composer thinks of their own music never meant much to me. Hell, Lutoslawski hated Concerto for Orchestra. Lord knows why he did, but he did!

I don't think your criticism of Martinu's early music is a fair one. All composers have influences that they carry with them throughout their lives. Even late Martinu has influences: Stravinsky particularly and he even reintroduces those Debussyian shadings of sound in works like Parables and Estampes for example. If this recording in question was the only Martinu recording you heard, then you would be doing yourself and only yourself an injustice in not pursuing his music further. Martinu, as I stated before, cannot be pigeon-holed. All I'm saying this is a disc worth acquiring whether one is new to Martinu or not.

There's a difference between an assimilated, understood, maturely used influence and the undigested waiting-to-be-shed ones in a young composer, though...

BTW, I know that if this had been the first disc of Martinu I heard, I would have explored further. That's because I know that I have done this in other cases; it's because I'm an inveterate reader of liner notes and everything else, and I would have known that the disc told a very particular, non-representative part of the story. My concern, I suppose, is that maybe not everyone does this. I've seen many people here dismiss a composer on the basis of an unfortunate first listen, and it always makes me sad!

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 12, 2011, 08:12:11 AM
I have found myself lately searching for as much chamber music of Martinu as possible. I really haven't come across a chamber piece of his I didn't enjoy.
[asin]B0000014AR[/asin]

Coincidentally, I just re-ordered this disc of the chamber music. It was one of the first Martinu discs I got, c. 12 years ago, and for some unaccountable reason I got rid of it. I remember it as being a very good survey of his chamber music.
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Mirror Image

Quote from: Luke on July 12, 2011, 09:11:21 AM
There's a difference between an assimilated, understood, maturely used influence and the undigested waiting-to-be-shed ones in a young composer, though...

BTW, I know that if this had been the first disc of Martinu I heard, I would have explored further. That's because I know that I have done this in other cases; it's because I'm an inveterate reader of liner notes and everything else, and I would have known that the disc told a very particular, non-representative part of the story. My concern, I suppose, is that maybe not everyone does this. I've seen many people here dismiss a composer on the basis of an unfortunate first listen, and it always makes me sad!

Well regardless of what another person thinks about this recording, I enjoy it for what it is: finely crafted compositions that have a nostalgic feeling and heart to them that I don't always hear in Martinu. I don't care what anybody else thinks about these works. I think they're wonderful and are definitely top-notch works that deserve to be heard and absorbed on their own merits.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Luke on July 12, 2011, 08:11:02 AM
As for recommendations I'd add - the ones I always do, and others too. I only say them again because I didn't see them on your list.

The Hyperion twofer of chamber music
[asin]B000007NE9[/asin]

The Supraphon recording of the late chamber cantatas.
[asin]B002DMIIUW[/asin]

Thanks for the recommendations, Luke. By the way, no hard feelings from my past couple of posts. I respect your opinion. I can only hope you will do the same for mine.

Luke

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 12, 2011, 10:17:59 AM
Thanks for the recommendations, Luke. By the way, no hard feelings from my past couple of posts. I respect your opinion. I can only hope you will do the same for mine.

Of course I do, and the sentiment is appreciated. I have no hard feelings whatsoever, and when I first posted I kew that this kind of to-and-fro between us would run for a post or two. The point is, as I hope I made clear, I like that disc a lot too; my only misgiving is about whether it is a good choice to recommend it to a newbie.

I also agree with what you say about them having a 'heart' which isn't always as on the surface in Martinu's work as it is here. I guess that is because, as I was hinting at, they haven't yet shed their 19th century heritage as much as his later works would. But though it is not a typical feature of his music, you are right that it is certainly a charming one and one of the pleasures of the disc.