Author Topic: Bach Cello Suites  (Read 117063 times)

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Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach's Cello Suites
« Reply #520 on: January 03, 2018, 05:39:58 AM »
Yes, I only know the second/recent recording. Would be interested in the first one, I like the idea of those couplings.

The opposite with me, I did not acquire the first one because of these couplings. As a rule I prefer to avoid mixed programming.
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Offline king ubu

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Re: Bach's Cello Suites
« Reply #521 on: January 03, 2018, 05:52:20 AM »
The opposite with me, I did not acquire the first one because of these couplings. As a rule I prefer to avoid mixed programming.

Seems to be a quite wide-spread view among classical music buffs ... but to me many of those ECM New Series mixed programmes look really good, and so do the Demenga Bach etc. CDs.
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Bach's Cello Suites
« Reply #522 on: January 03, 2018, 06:03:12 AM »
For those who can hear both the Demenga Bach recordings, I'll hazard a hypothesis or two about the essential differences. He's come to believe that in Baroque, the articulation should be more speech like. In fact in the booklet to the recent recording, he's reported as saying that the music should sound like sprechgesange!

(Is this idea of music as speech out of style now? I mean Egarr, Rubsam . . . ) 

He's also reported as thinking  that the music is  like empfindsamer stil. And just maybe he really does apply this - I mean, it doesn't sound like CPEB, but nevertheless, and I maybe kidding myself, in eg, the allemande in the 5th suite, the feelings do rapidly change. Probably a case of hypnosis / suggestion, or maybe I'm just listening more closely for the affective meaning of the music! Anyway, something to think about.

There are lots of stimulating  details to relish in the second recording I think.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 06:11:19 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline San Antone

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Re: Bach's Cello Suites
« Reply #523 on: January 03, 2018, 06:08:36 AM »
For those who can hear both the Demenga Bach recordings, I'll hazard a hypothesis or two about the essential differences. He's come to believe that in Baroque, the articulation should be more speech like. In fact in the booklet to the recent recording, he's reported as saying that the music should sound like sprechgesange!

He's also reported as thinking  that the music is  like empfindsamer stil. And just maybe he really does apply this - I mean, it doesn't sound like CPEB, but nevertheless, and I maybe kidding myself, in eg, the allemande in the 5th suite, the feelings do rapidly change. Probably a case of hypnosis / suggestion! Anyway, something to think about.

There are lots of stimulating  details to relish in the second recording I think.

Suite No. 3 in C just ended and the first of the three Carter works just began.  I love the juxtaposition!

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Re: Bach's Cello Suites
« Reply #524 on: January 03, 2018, 06:15:02 AM »
In fact in the booklet to the recent recording, he's reported as saying that the music should sound like sprechgesange!
He doesn't.

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Bach's Cello Suites
« Reply #525 on: January 03, 2018, 06:19:18 AM »
He doesn't.

Oh yes, sorry, quasi-sprechgesange!
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Re: Bach's Cello Suites
« Reply #526 on: January 03, 2018, 07:27:37 AM »
Demenga has recorded the suites twice: he previously recorded the cello suites for ECM between 1986 and 2002, juxtaposing them with contemporary compositions and then the more recent collection of all six suites.  Both series were issued by ECM.

Listened to up to 3/allemande. I don't see any particular reason to prefer this recording to any other average recording.

Offline André

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Re: Bach's Cello Suites
« Reply #527 on: January 03, 2018, 07:35:29 AM »
Ten years ago I wrote this about it (post 12 in this thread):

This is a remarkable and very individual interpretation. It is indeed dancing, with generally fast tempi and rhytmic energy even in the Sarabande´s, and Cocset plays with astonishing elegance and virtuosity. Miking is close, you can hear the noise from the left hand clearly, but this is not annoying at all, on the contrary it adds to the feeling of presence. The sound is dark and soft - almost seducing, and sometimes the instrument sounds more like a bass viola da gamba than like a a violoncello. Recommended without reservation.

Thanks, squid and premont. I like Cocset’s way with music - find it very vocal, if that makes sense. The Cocset Suites are included in the 18 cd set of baroque favourites on Alpha (along with the Café Zimmerman Brandenburgs and stuff). I’ve been ogling that box for a few weeks, I’m close to succumbing, now.

Offline San Antone

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Re: Bach's Cello Suites
« Reply #528 on: January 03, 2018, 07:47:02 AM »
Listened to up to 3/allemande. I don't see any particular reason to prefer this recording to any other average recording.

Could be.  This is why I probably prefer the earlier series with the unique programming.  But I haven't listened to the new set entirely either.  Right now listening to this one:


Offline bioluminescentsquid

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Re: Bach's Cello Suites
« Reply #529 on: January 03, 2018, 07:54:27 AM »
How do you find the latest hypes, Watkin, Demenga?

Watkin is definitely much more extrovert than most of the players we discussed previously, which could translate into "self-indulgence" It wasn't irritating, but it didn't strike me to be particularly special. (Of course, this will need a few relistens) The Amati used in the last suite is stunning, though. Enough reason to get the set (?)

Also just listened to Paolo Beschi's Cello suites. He's the quintessential Shakespeare Italian, quick to love and anger. Great angular, rough-and-ready performance. His 6th suite didn't impress me too much though, there's something missing.

Wasn't aware of Demenga; will explore.

Offline bioluminescentsquid

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Re: Bach's Cello Suites
« Reply #530 on: January 03, 2018, 07:57:27 AM »


One of my favorites. The 6th suite was actually played on a mid-18th century Viola da Gamba that Istomin installed a new nut and tailpiece on to make it into a five-stringed fretted violoncello-piccolo-ba.

Edit: yikes, huge picture!

Edit #2: Just listened to Demenga's 5th. I'm very impressed. Very interesting range of articulations and colors. His use of vibrato reminds me of Bruggenesque breath vibrato on recorder. There are parts that almost sound like a Sweelinck echo fantasia. The dances are well, mighty fine and dance-like. A sense of wondrous discovery that reminds me of Bylsma's first recording (which is probably my favorite cello suites). I haven't picked up on a speech-like aspect yet but maybe that will come later.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 09:44:28 AM by Que »

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Re: Bach's Cello Suites
« Reply #531 on: January 03, 2018, 08:02:36 AM »
Also just listened to Paolo Beschi's Cello suites. He's the quintessential Shakespeare Italian, quick to love and anger. Great angular, rough-and-ready performance. His 6th suite didn't impress me too much though, there's something missing.
Beschi's is somewhat introspective, but not nearly as much as Wispelwey's. Very danceable rhythms, strongly articulated bowing. It's an easy to live with PI. The 6th's instrument is different than the 1754 Carlo Testore of the first 5. It sounds like as if it has a 5th string.

Offline bioluminescentsquid

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Re: Bach's Cello Suites
« Reply #532 on: January 03, 2018, 08:16:56 AM »
Beschi's is somewhat introspective, but not nearly as much as Wispelwey's. Very danceable rhythms, strongly articulated bowing. It's an easy to live with PI. The 6th's instrument is different than the 1754 Carlo Testore of the first 5. It sounds like as if it has a 5th string.

"Danceable", I like that description. I wouldn't be surprised; it's customary now for HIP cello suites to use a violoncello piccolo since that's what Bach likely wrote the 6th for.

Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach's Cello Suites
« Reply #533 on: January 03, 2018, 09:16:39 AM »
it's customary now for HIP cello suites to use a violoncello piccolo since that's what Bach likely wrote the 6th for.

??
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Bach's Cello Suites
« Reply #534 on: January 03, 2018, 09:43:22 AM »
Watkin is definitely much more extrovert than most of the players we discussed previously, which could translate into "self-indulgence" It wasn't irritating, but it didn't strike me to be particularly special. (Of course, this will need a few relistens) The Amati used in the last suite is stunning, though. Enough reason to get the set (?)

Also just listened to Paolo Beschi's Cello suites. He's the quintessential Shakespeare Italian, quick to love and anger. Great angular, rough-and-ready performance. His 6th suite didn't impress me too much though, there's something missing.

Wasn't aware of Demenga; will explore.

To me, in the allemande of 5 Watkin sounds as though he's milking the music for every drop of sentiment, like the aural equivalent of hamming it up.

It'll be interesting to see whether you think that Demenga II is more angular than Beschi, in the sense of more incisively phrased.

i think the sprechgesange thing just means phrasing in short cells. The empfindsamer stil idea seems more original - though maybe short cell phrasing is pretty revolutionary in the world of cello!
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 09:48:29 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Bach's Cello Suites
« Reply #535 on: January 03, 2018, 09:53:04 AM »
Not 100% sure about the Allmusic remark, but the Gramophone one has to be labeled mysoginist, right? No way such a statement would ever be made about a recording by a man.

I like that recording quite some, actually. As I don't stream, I've not heard her first.

The Demenga is quite good, too, I think - he stresses the dancing aspects and qualities of the music, and explains his idea of the pieces and concept of execution extensively in the liner notes.

Hi King Ubu - I agree w/ the comment in bold above, i.e. about being mysogynistic - interestingly, the review was written by a woman, Julie Anne Sadie, who was the second wife of Stanley Sadie - kind of odd -  ::)  ;)  Dave

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Bach's Cello Suites
« Reply #536 on: January 03, 2018, 10:10:55 AM »
Love these performed by Steven Isserlis.  They have a deep rich textured sound which is typical of Steven

. I heard Isserlis  play the gamba sonatas on a cello with Egarr and I enjoyed the concert very much - to my surprise because I was sceptical that they could pull off the balances with a cello, but it was fine

I have his recording of the the solo suites, I just don't think it quite has the poetry and personality of some others who use a modern instrument - like Colin Carr or, to take a much older recording, Heinrich Schiff.
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Offline bioluminescentsquid

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Re: Bach's Cello Suites
« Reply #537 on: January 03, 2018, 10:31:52 AM »
??

Well, "likely" is the key word. Viola pomposa or cello da spalla are also likely candidates. Or something else that Johann Christian Hoffmann cooked up in his workshop. But something à cinq cordes.

Speaking of Viola Pomposa, here's an interesting recording of the 6th, done in the 70's but on what looks like an original viola pomposa. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7KltjdkBlc
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 10:40:29 AM by bioluminescentsquid »

Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach's Cello Suites
« Reply #538 on: January 03, 2018, 11:19:04 AM »
Well, "likely" is the key word. Viola pomposa or cello da spalla are also likely candidates. Or something else that Johann Christian Hoffmann cooked up in his workshop. But something à cinq cordes.

So we are in agreement about this.

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid
Speaking of Viola Pomposa, here's an interesting recording of the 6th, done in the 70's but on what looks like an original viola pomposa. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7KltjdkBlc

Yes, I posted that link two days ago in this thread (reply 503), and I also know the Ulrich Koch recording from my youth. But he struggles so much with the instrument (even if he was one of the leading violists at the time), that I consider the recording to be most interesting from an organological point of view, And this instrument was certainly rethinking around 1970

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3719.msg1117813.html#msg1117813
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Offline milk

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Re: Bach's Cello Suites
« Reply #539 on: January 20, 2018, 07:50:24 PM »


These recordings are stunning.