Bach Cello Suites

[André]

While shopping at JPC I noticed they are offering the cello suites in a transcription for french horn. If the audio samples do not deter the prospective buyer, then nothing will...

[Olias]

While shopping at JPC I noticed they are offering the cello suites in a transcription for french horn. If the audio samples do not deter the prospective buyer, then nothing will...

Yeah, back in my university days, I used the two Bourrees of the 3rd suite as my horn audition.  They accepted me into the program despite my playing.....

[André]

Yeah, back in my university days, I used the two Bourrees of the 3rd suite as my horn audition.  They accepted me into the program despite my playing.....

I can imagine the dances can be accommodated on a wind instrument, but the preludes, esp. that of the 1st suite, with its wave upon wave of sound are another thing. On that recording the horn player has some embarrassing (surely unavoidable) breath intakes that destroy the musical line 

[staxomega]

I can't remember if I posted it to this thread or not, Colin Carr's GM Recordings have been my go to ever since premont brought them up on another board a few years ago. I've been so into this set that I haven't played many other recordings since getting it. I've been meaning to hear the Wigmore Hall set that was also mentioned but every time I hear this one I just forget about it. I am pretty sure this would make my top three.

edit: I should have re-read the thread before posting, I did mention it a few pages ago. Anyway since that post I did find Arnau Tomàs' recording and have enjoyed this as well, just not to the same extent as Carr on GM.

[Olias]

I can imagine the dances can be accommodated on a wind instrument, but the preludes, esp. that of the 1st suite, with its wave upon wave of sound are another thing. On that recording the horn player has some embarrassing (surely unavoidable) breath intakes that destroy the musical line 

Yeah, some things just shouldn't be transcribed for other instruments.

[SonicMan46]

Hopkinson Smith in the Cello Suites - your thoughts and comments?

Now, I usually love this guy's performances - have enjoyed his recordings (own as an MP3 DL) in the Bach Violin Sonatas & Patitatas (first pic below) - today from PrestoMusic I received Smith performing the Cello Suites, a 2-CD set w/ the discs being quite different in their description (as are his notes in the booklet) - the first disc (BWV 1007-9) was recorded in 2012 on a 'German' theorbo; the second disc (BWV 1010-12) was played on several 13-course lutes w/ dates listed as 1980 & 1992 - WOW what a difference - however, despite their older recording dates, the lute works sound excellent.  Now I'm enjoying this set although the theorbo recording is rather 'sedate' - cannot find many reviews (some attached w/ a scolding from the Irish Times - important?).

So just wondering if others have heard these recordings and your thoughts - Dave

 

[Mandryka]

Hopkinson Smith in the Cello Suites - your thoughts and comments?

Now, I usually love this guy's performances - have enjoyed his recordings (own as an MP3 DL) in the Bach Violin Sonatas & Patitatas (first pic below) - today from PrestoMusic I received Smith performing the Cello Suites, a 2-CD set w/ the discs being quite different in their description (as are his notes in the booklet) - the first disc (BWV 1007-9) was recorded in 2012 on a 'German' theorbo; the second disc (BWV 1010-12) was played on several 13-course lutes w/ dates listed as 1980 & 1992 - WOW what a difference - however, despite their older recording dates, the lute works sound excellent.  Now I'm enjoying this set although the theorbo recording is rather 'sedate' - cannot find many reviews (some attached w/ a scolding from the Irish Times - important?).

So just wondering if others have heard these recordings and your thoughts - Dave

 

I think the 5th cello suite in that set is also an early recording -- check, I don't have the details to hand. I'd be interested to know whether you think Hopkinson Smith's approach changes with time, or with the suites.

You should also hear this I think

https://www.amazon.com/Partita-Bwv-1004-Sonata-10/dp/B000024F8G/ref=sr_1_1?crid=L3VUQBRV5Q6J&keywords=B000024F8G&qid=1651914698&sprefix=b000024f8g%2Caps%2C405&sr=8-1

Here's part of Smith's comment from the recording with the flute sonata and violin sonata

An arrangement arouses suspicion. It remains stubbornly defensive, arguing one point after another and proclaiming its very right to exist. Our age is always on the lookout for the "original" version: here we can rest assured of the legitimacy of what we are hearing.

With a few notable exceptions, the encounter of a violinist with Bach's solo Sonatas and Partitas has some of the elements of a stormy sea raging against a rocky coast broken occasionally by lagoons of eloquence. The technical demands are such that even on the violin, this music already has some of the aspects of an arrangement about it. We sense an "absolute" character which transcends the polyphonic precipices which the violinist is obliged to brave.

The lute moves inland. The music flows through other landscapes where a gesture otherwise gone awry instead aligns itself organically in the emanating equilibrium. The D minor Partita gains a new perspective from the lute's vantage point as it unfolds on a more intimate plane.

[Madiel]

Written like a man justifying his existence. I'm not sure why I would want music written for a bowed instrument to be played on a plucked one.

[prémont]

Hopkinson Smith in the Cello Suites - your thoughts and comments?
 

I purchased them (and his violin solo arrangements) several years ago, but found them unlistenable - the expressive (and often dramatic) string writing being reduced to polite pling-pluck - and I culled them soon. Arrangements like these (as well as many others) only seem to serve the performers purpose. For the listener nothing is gained compared to the composers original works.

[Mandryka]

I purchased them (and his violin solo arrangements) several years ago, but found them unlistenable - the expressive (and often dramatic) string writing being reduced to polite pling-pluck - and I culled them soon. Arrangements like these (as well as many others) only seem to serve the performers purpose. For the listener nothing is gained compared to the composers original works.

This is true in the first three cello suites, less so IMO in the last three. He plays them like ballads, which I rather like. The violin sonatas and partitas are different again, and the early recording more visceral, less paired down and ascetic than the later from memory.

[SonicMan46]

Written like a man justifying his existence. I'm not sure why I would want music written for a bowed instrument to be played on a plucked one.

Well, we can certainly agree to be different -    I like and have many transcriptions, some certainly work better than others but 'plucked vs. bowed' seems to be one of the more difficult transitions - would Bach approve (at least in the attempt)?  Plus, I have a half dozen versions on the cello so was looking for an alternate.  Dave

[SonicMan46]

I think the 5th cello suite in that set is also an early recording -- check, I don't have the details to hand. I'd be interested to know whether you think Hopkinson Smith's approach changes with time, or with the suites.

You should also hear this I think

https://www.amazon.com/Partita-Bwv-1004-Sonata-10/dp/B000024F8G/ref=sr_1_1?crid=L3VUQBRV5Q6J&keywords=B000024F8G&qid=1651914698&sprefix=b000024f8g%2Caps%2C405&sr=8-1

Here's part of Smith's comment from the recording with the flute sonata and violin sonata

Yes, the 5th Cello Suite is on the 2nd disc (recording dates given in my post), also listed as BWV 995 & 1011 - Smith writes the booklet notes and agree attempts to justify the use of a 'German' theorbo (his name to an instrument from Weiss' time) which he uses on the 2012 first disc for Suites 1-3 - will do a re-listen but something I likely will not want to sample again (despite many of the Amazonians USA stating they put both discs on ALL day -  ).  Just trying to get some comments because I'm not having a great likeness to Smith's recordings of these works; AND now I must relisten to my MP3 DLs of the Violin Sonatas and Partitas which I've not done in a while.  Thanks for your thoughts and the link.  Dave

[SonicMan46]

I purchased them (and his violin solo arrangements) several years ago, but found them unlistenable - the expressive (and often dramatic) string writing being reduced to polite pling-pluck - and I culled them soon. Arrangements like these (as well as many others) only seem to serve the performers purpose. For the listener nothing is gained compared to the composers original works.

Hi : premont : - like your 'polite pling-pluck' description - kind of how I felt about the first disc w/ theorbo in addition to be rather sedate and not recorded w/ enough up-front presence; the second disc I was more receptive - now, the sonatas/partitas I must listen again, enjoyed in the past but may not now, don't know yet.  Thanks for your comments.  Dave

[Judith]

Steven Isserlis has recently written a wonderful book about the Bach Cello Suites explaining the story behind them and each piece.

His recording is beautiful also.

[aukhawk]

I think there's a world of difference between the Cello Suites and the Violin S&P, when it comes to amenabilty for transcription.  Without the cello tone, alternately gruff and singing, there just isn't enough in the music with its implied, rather than stated, harmonies.  This is obvious when you listen to Rubsam for example, plodding his way on his lute-harpsichord.   The violin works and obviously especially the Chaconne, have more overt polyphony built in and have been transcribed with more success.

[Mandryka]

I think there's a world of difference between the Cello Suites and the Violin S&P, when it comes to amenabilty for transcription.  Without the cello tone, alternately gruff and singing, there just isn't enough in the music with its implied, rather than stated, harmonies.  This is obvious when you listen to Rubsam for example, plodding his way on his lute-harpsichord.   The violin works and obviously especially the Chaconne, have more overt polyphony built in and have been transcribed with more success.

You and your gruff and singing. You're a cellist, you're biased!

What  Hopkinson Smith makes of the the first three cello suites is purified, fluid, and beautifully understated. I find what he does the opposite of reductive - he somehow finds a feeling of childlike innocence in the music. I wish more cellists would play them like that. The instrument he uses for these suites is special, a theorbo which is very discrete and subtle lower notes.

[Madiel]

"Beautifully understated" = can't  produce the drama and feeling of the works previously referred to by a different poster.

Seriously, we are talking about a work that is generally considered to have single-handedly shown the possibilities of the cello. The only reason to transcribe it is because the lute (and some other instruments) don't have anything as famous or as jaw-dropping in their repertoire.

A transcription might make sense when you don't have a cellist available, but in the age of recorded music, with the best cellists in the world at your fingertips, it just doesn't stand up. And this is my beef with MOST modern transcriptions. They cease to have much function beyond fulfilling the desires of performers who aren't satisfied with the repertoire available to them, and who either don't want to commission new music or don't think it would sell as jumping onto a popular bandwagon.

[Mandryka]

Bach was a musical ecologist, the masterful recycler of his own compositions, arranging more than a few from one instrument or combination of instruments to another. Many of his works seem conceived on a somewhat abstract plane, above and beyond any specific instrument, and it was completely natural for the pragmatic eighteenth-century mind and ear to adapt them to the instrument of its choice.

Among the so-called 'official' lute works of Bach, there exist two such adaptations: from the solo violin repertoire, the Third Partita, BWV 1006, becomes BWV 1006a for the lute, and the Fifth Cello Suite is transformed into the Lute Suite in G minor, BWV 995. Of course, lutenists had been adapting music for their instrument for centuries. More than half of the continental lute music of the Renaissance is made up of adaptations of vocal works. In the French baroque, Robert de Visee couldn't stop making transcriptions for his theorbo of orchestral and keyboard works by his contemporaries. The great eighteenth-century German lutenist, Sylvius Weiss, a friend of Bach's, was said to have played violin concertos directly on the lute.

These examples of adaptations are not given as a kind of 'justification' for the present project as if the idea needed to be defended historically. It is more to guide the modern musical thinker (who sometimes knows more about 'authenticity' than did the musicians of former times) to the state of experimentation and discovery that is completely natural for the musician: one sits alone with one's instrument without a score, playing melodies and harmonies that one has heard here or there and making them one's own. There is an alchemy to this creative moment which has been part of the musician's world from the beginning of time.


I am certainly not the first person to have rethought Bach's cello music on a member of the lute family. There have been some beautiful renditions of these works on the Baroque lute as well as on the French/Italian theorbo or chitarrone (the terms can be used interchangeably). For various reasons, neither of these instruments match the sound and aesthetic ideal that I find most appropriate for the first three of the six suites. On the Baroque lute, if one is to use the full range of the instrument, the suites must be transposed to a register where they lose the robust chest-voiced character which is an inherent part of the melodiousness of the works. On the lower pitched theorbo/ chitarrone, we do find this character, but since the instrument is almost universally single-strung, we lose some of the lute's nobility and eloquence that is derived from its double strings and notably, in the lower register, from the octave strings that are coupled with the basses and give them a ringing openness and transparency. Suites 4 and 6 lend themselves more convincingly to the Baroque lute, but my solution for the first three suites is a type of theorbo which was invented and developed by Sylvius Weiss in the 1720s. Interestingly enough, the Fifth Suite, which works well transposed one step higher on the Baroque lute, works equally well in its original key on the instrument Weiss created, which has the following tuning:

<snip.>

The 13 or sometimes 14 courses of strings have a close similarity with the standard Baroque lute tuning in that the top two courses are single-strung followed by 11 (or 12) double-strung courses and that the German theorbo retains the D minor tuning but without the f' string that is the top string of the Baroque lute. Weiss writes that he developed the instrument with greater body size and longer string length to produce a fuller sound for performance in chamber music and orchestras. There were Italians at the court of Dresden where Weiss was active who played the chitarrone, but Weiss disapproved of the rough and dry sound produced by these players who plucked the strings with their fingernails.

Weiss used the term 'chitarrone' referring to the foreign instrument and `Theorbe' in referring to the instrument that he had developed. In our present times, some variant of the word `theorbo' is almost universally used for a variety of deep-pitched lutes with extended bass strings which were common from the end of the sixteenth right through the eighteenth century. For lack of a better term, I have chosen to call Weiss's invention the 'German theorbo' in order to differentiate it historically, geographically and in its tuning from its better-known cousins.



Bach's writing in these suites is as varied and inventive as ever. Melodious, boisterous, amazingly delicate, expansively lyrical, then cleverly busy with detail in complicated figuration... I see my intention in arranging for a plucked instrument as a challenge to approach 'what Bach himself might have done' in adapting a piece from one medium to another. No one can ever know for sure, of course, but familiarity with his chamber music and keyboard works gives clues. Where the cello writing is melodious with occasional chords (places in the Allemandes and Sarabandes), the plucked instrument can provide a fuller accompaniment; where an unaccompanied melodic figure is repeated (Courante of the First Suite) a bass can be added that clarifies the harmonic sequences; where the capricious turns of phrase and wry humour (Gigue of the Second Suite) suggest polyphonic continuity, the lute-instrument can realize this; where a single melody seems to suggest the need for an independent bass line (Bourree II of the Third Suite), a bass can be created, and where one voice in the cello score suggests two or three (in the Allemandes), these voices can be further developed on the German theorbo, etc.


The three suites have been transposed a fourth higher and because of this, the top string of the theorbo fulfils the function of the top string of the cello, which is a fourth lower. This is an important detail in that Bach occasionally (for instance in the Prelude of the Second Suite) uses the open string as a pedal-point.
The tempos may occasionally be somewhat of a surprise to listeners used to the solo cello versions. With the resonance and fuller harmonies of the German theorbo, one tends to roll more with some of the more robust dance rhythms of these suites, with no need to rush through. The silence beyond the music is the constant friend and companion of any player of early plucked instruments.

Hopkinson Smith October 2012

[Madiel]

Did you miss the part where I referred to recorded music, or just choose to ignore it?

Bach did not live in a time where you could make the sound of a cello emerge from your speakers. Any argument based on the transcription habits of Baroque composers is deliberately ignoring that the options for hearing music were completely different, and when used to justify a recording rather than a live performance are just hopelessly anachronistic.

Nor have I ever considered what composers do themselves equivalent to what others do later. If anyone is in a position to properly understand and translate the music, it's the composer. Everyone else is just guessing. I will never forget Beethoven's views on this and how he was partly driven to make arrangements by his dissatisfaction with arrangements done by others.

[aukhawk]

Where the cello writing is melodious with occasional chords (places in the Allemandes and Sarabandes), the plucked instrument can provide a fuller accompaniment; where an unaccompanied melodic figure is repeated (Courante of the First Suite) a bass can be added that clarifies the harmonic sequences; where the capricious turns of phrase and wry humour (Gigue of the Second Suite) suggest polyphonic continuity, the lute-instrument can realize this; where a single melody seems to suggest the need for an independent bass line (Bourree II of the Third Suite), a bass can be created, and where one voice in the cello score suggests two or three (in the Allemandes), these voices can be further developed on the German theorbo, etc.

That seems to me to be a clear process of dumbing-down.     The music of the Cello Suites works so well because these harmonic cues are implied, not overtly stated.
Disclaimer - I haven't heard the H S recordings.  Yet.  (I have had some recordings by Nigel North for a very long time - but they don't sound very interesting to me.)