Bach Cello Suites

[Marc]

Well, according to whomever it was that wrote the liner notes for the GROC rerelease of Perlman's recording of them, it's the solo violin works which memorialized his first wife.   The only evidence cited is that Bach's title,  Sei Solo, etc.  can mean either "Six Solos" or "Be alone".

To add something very interesting: AFAIK, four children were still living when Maria Barbara died. So: four children + one father + the maid = sei solo persone = six lonely people.
Adding the 'be alone' meaning, and the fact that Bach was mad about arithmetics, this would mean that Perlman's booklet must be spot on!

[Antoine Marchand]

In general, I'm not that fond of such romanticized descriptions, like it is some kind of Programma Music.
On the other hand: we have no idea what Bach was 'thinking' during composing these Suites, so each and everyone of us is free to make their own analysis.
I could also say: the Sarabande of the Second Suite is about a lost love. So it must have been composed shortly after the death of Bach's first wife .... who will be there to contradict me?

I probably agree when you speak about these specific pieces, but the program music is not really a Romantic idea. The Baroque was full of program music during two centuries from the simple imitation of animal noises to the musical representation of ideas and feelings. Vivaldi, Biber, Kuhnau and a lot of Baroque composers demonstrate it. 

[Marc]

I probably agree when you speak about these specific pieces, but the program music is not really a Romantic idea. The Baroque was full of program music during two centuries from the simple imitation of animal noises to the musical representation of ideas and feelings. Vivaldi, Biber, Kuhnau and a lot of Baroque composers demonstrate it. 

True.
Le quattro stagioni!
All part of the Imitatio thing.
Very popular during the ages.
IMO, almost all music is imitatio.

I was more thinking about f.i. Beethoven, Bruckner and Mahler symphonies, who were 'explained' as Program Music, both by the composers and by listeners. Like: the beginning of Beethoven's 5th symphony is Fate Knocking On The Door. The 3rd movement of Bruckner's 9th is Abschied vom Leben. No wonder Bruckner wasn't able to finish the Finale!
Mahler was overly programmatic and emotional about his work being his life and blood.
Tchaikovsky is another good example, in explaining his works in a very personal way to mrs. Von Meck.

But these are all notions that in most cases don't apply to Bach's music, IMHO. To him, music composing making was nothing more (AND nothing less!) than a very serious and joyful handcraft in the honour of God, who created earth, man and instruments.
And we do know almost nothing about his personal life and character. Which, as I said before, leaves a lot of freedom to all of us to interprete or overinterprete his work. Just because we are all influenced by the 19th century, where these kinds of interpretations became far more important than almost any other analysis.

Again: speaking of matters like this, BWV 244a could be a very interesting work when 'Bach analysis' is concerned.

Just one example: the aria "Kom, süßes Kreuz, so will ich sagen", with its heavy rhythm and going to underline the Calvary idea. What about this specific Via Dolorosa idea in the aria "Laß, Leopold, dich nicht begraben"?
An aria of a secular Mourning Cantata BWV 244a (1728) for Leopold of Köthen, 'composed' one year after the Matthäus-Passion (1727), with a lot of music of the SMP used again.
Or was the SMP really 'composed' in 1729? Then what about the 'no doubt about it' interpretations and Calvary analysis of the music of "Kom, süßes Kreuz, so will ich sagen"? 

Again: this could be very interesting, IMHO.

The first version of "Kom, süßes Kreuz" was with lute obbligato. The second version (1736) was for viola da gamba. With a gamba, the heavy Via Dolorosa idea was much better realized. So, was the original lute version maybe originally composed for BWV 244a? With not a single notion about Jesus and his Cross? Or was the Cross version the first one, and (according to Bach) with a lute obbligato very well situated in the Mourning Cantata, too?

I know, this is rather off-topic, but I just mention this example to illustrate that all those interpretations, even used for vocal music (with lyrics to support the interpretation), still could remain questionable. So, analysing the instrumental Cello Suites in a way Isserlis does, will remain questionable, too. Even though it's interesting thinking by him, I certainly agree with that. But until we find a letter by Bach in which he confirms Isserlis' interpretations, we can only wonder .... and just enjoy the music.

[Antoine Marchand]

True.
Le quattro stagioni!
All part of the Imitatio thing.
Very popular during the ages.
IMO, almost all music is imitatio.

I was more thinking about f.i. Beethoven, Bruckner and Mahler symphonies, who were 'explained' as Program Music, both by the composers and by listeners. Like: the beginning of Beethoven's 5th symphony is Fate Knocking On The Door. The 3rd movement of Bruckner's 9th is Abschied vom Leben. No wonder Bruckner wasn't able to finish the Finale!
Mahler was overly programmatic and emotional about his work being his life and blood.
Tchaikovsky is another good example, in explaining his works in a very personal way to mrs. Von Meck.

Well, all this matter is very deep and I would need to elaborate a suitable reply.

However, I have this idea: we have talked here about the Baroque music as a speech.

If we accept that Baroque composers –Bach included- understood their music as a speech to illustrate certain ideas or beliefs -in God, for example-, that idea wouldn't be so far from a general concept about music like a kind of "program".

Even more: An interesting field to research is the connection between Baroque music and Rhetoric. I have read, for example, about Elizabeth Farr's papers where she analyses bar for bar the rhetorical forms and devices used by Bach in the Italian Concerto (so was said by her classmate at Michigan Brad Lehmann)... and Rhetoric is an art intended to persuade in some way. Therefore, it could be concluded that music and spoken word had a more intimate connection in the Baroque mind than in later ages.

Now: Can we understand correctly that speech? Do we know the rules to "decode" that discourse? I think it's a different issue. 

[Marc]

[.....]
Now: Can we understand correctly that speech? Do we know the rules to "decode" that discourse? I think it's a different issue. 

Yes, it is different, and it is difficult, too.
Especially for laymen.
But it's worth investigating.
And it's done on a wide scale for ages, at universities et al.
Like medieval studies (I had my share of that long time ago). One thing I learned there: it's useless to read medieval texts with one's 20th century spectacles on, or with romantized glasses. One has at least to give it a try to understand medieval thinking, like memento mori or Courtly Love.
So, don't get me wrong: I certainly value attemps like Isserling's. But this doesn't mean that I have to agree with his conclusions. Or take them for granted.
It's the same actually with the 4 Duetti of Bach's Third Clavier-Übung. Why are they there? People have been written books about it. The Four Gospels? The Four Elements? The Four .... Who Knows?
In such cases, I admit that I tend to be a very down-to-earth-person: maybe they were only meant to be Four Duetti, nothing more, nothing less.
So, in the end, my postings about these matters are .... rather subjective, which of course is quite a surprise.

Add this:
the idea Music as speech (Harnoncourt) as a Baroque idea is maybe not entirely supported by all (baroque) musicians AND historians.

[Luke]

.....not something I have thought deeply about, but my initial response to Isserlis's reading of the 'meanings' of the 6 suites is that they are not totally fanciful, especially because there is no need to imagine that e.g. the 5th suite either had to directly '=' the crucifixion in Bach's mind or that it had to be entirely program-free - it doesn't have to be an either-or issue. More to the point is that so much Baroque music, Bach's certainly and clearly no exception, is absolutely laden with symbolism, symbolism of key, of notation, of interval (Ich will den Kreuzstab' - Kreuz marked with a # sign, and thus, also, 'painfully' augmentin the interval between B flat and C #), or gesture, of tuning. In the Rosary sonatas of Biber, for instance, scordatura has both a technical and a symbolic application; I'm pretty certain Bach must have been immersed in that same symbolic world, and whether he used it consciously or not, it may well affect his music. Is it a coincidence that the scordatura suite is also the most tortured, the most chromatic? That the open string suites are the simplest, but with the 5-string D major like a transfiguration of the 4-string G major? What I'm saying is that whether there is a strict program or not - I rather doubt it, in fact - the general shape of a light-to-dark-through-reflection-and-pain-to-blazing-light program can be discerned in the suite. 

[Luke]

BTW, the most ridicuously unHIP reading of the suites I've ever heard is that of Alexander Kniazev. He stretches to 3 CDs, because he draws out the 6th suite to such absurd lengths that it won't fit on a disc with numbers 4 and 5. Incredibly, the Allemande of this suite, which is normally a matter of 7 or 8 minutes, Kniazev clocks in at an amazing 16 minutes...

The bizarre thing, though, is that I absolutely adore his playing, and return to it frequently - it's 'wrong', but it is so so right! If you're going to indulge in a romanticised reading of the suites, why not go the whole hog?

[Marc]

What I'm saying is that whether there is a strict program or not - I rather doubt it, in fact - the general shape of a light-to-dark-through-reflection-and-pain-to-blazing-light program can be discerned in the suite.

Agreement with that!
And, who knows, with Bach's Lutheran and symbolic background, maybe Isserlis is spot on!
But I certainly prefer your more general description.
Like the also more general descriptions by Mattheson, where he writes about the meaning of the various keys.

[Scarpia]

With all this mention of Isserlis, I checked.  Hyperion wants $46 for a 2CD set recorded by a single performer and no one is offering much of a discount.  To bad, I'm not going to pay it with so many other alternatives.  I've also not heard the Ibragimova on Hyperion for the same reason.     Clearly they can charge whatever they want, but I'm not going to subsidize their business model, which involves getting large margin on small sales.   I'll wait until it is remaindered on Berkshire Record Outlet, or until they go bankrupt and Naxos reissues their catalog.

[DavidRoss]

The bizarre thing, though, is that I absolutely adore his playing, and return to it frequently - it's 'wrong', but it is so so right! If you're going to indulge in a romanticised reading of the suites, why not go the whole hog?

Speaking of which: at times I very much enjoy Yo-Yo Ma's second recording of the suites.

One of the attributes of great music which distinguishes it from the merely good is that it is amenable to a wide variety of interpretive approaches, each of which informs and expands our constantly expanding appreciation for the music itself and for the soul of its composer.

[kishnevi]

With all this mention of Isserlis, I checked.  Hyperion wants $46 for a 2CD set recorded by a single performer and no one is offering much of a discount.  To bad, I'm not going to pay it with so many other alternatives.  I've also not heard the Ibragimova on Hyperion for the same reason.     Clearly they can charge whatever they want, but I'm not going to subsidize their business model, which involves getting large margin on small sales.   I'll wait until it is remaindered on Berkshire Record Outlet, or until they go bankrupt and Naxos reissues their catalog.

I bought the Ibragimova at Borders with one of their 30% coupons.  (It's worth joining their membership program for the sake of those coupons: this past week was the first week in a long time they didn't offer at least 20% or 25% off on everything including CDs ; and if the order amount doesn't get you free shipping, you can have it sent to a Borders store to avoid the S&H charge.)   I haven't heard it through enough times to make specific comments, but  my general feeling so far is that it's fairly mainstream, and if you don't have a special liking for the solo violin works like me,  you're probably not missing all that much if you don't buy it.

[Bulldog]

Speaking of which: at times I very much enjoy Yo-Yo Ma's second recording of the suites.

Same here, and I also enjoy Ma's 1st as well, although my general preference is for a baroque cello.  I find that Ma doesn't go over the top like Maisky and Rostropovich.

[kishnevi]

Reporting back:
I sprang for the Zuill Bailey recording I asked about a few days ago (on the Purchases Being Considered thread, I think).    I think it's quite well done; he is definitely a member of  the "these are dances, dammit!" group.   It's been a while since I played most of my other recordings of the Suites (Casals, Ma, Kirschbaum, and Kleigel--the latter is definitely the worst of the lot), so I can't compare it directly to them, but I am definitely glad I bought this one (and at 17.99 USD before discounts, it's certainly cheaper than the Isserlis).  (He plays, btw, a  late 17th century cello equipped with modern strings and bow.)

[SonicMan46]

Reporting back:
I sprang for the Zuill Bailey recording I asked about a few days ago (on the Purchases Being Considered thread, I think).    I think it's quite well done.......................

Not sure if I may have been responding about Bailey in the other thread, but he was excellent in concert when I saw him a while back, and his Beethoven Cello Works w/ Dinnerstein is quite good (excellent review by Jerry Dubins quoted HERE).

For those still questioning a new or additional version of the Cello Suites, BRO is still offering the much lauded Queyras set, described in the attachment - mine is 'in the mail'! 

[Guido]

BTW, the most ridicuously unHIP reading of the suites I've ever heard is that of Alexander Kniazev. He stretches to 3 CDs, because he draws out the 6th suite to such absurd lengths that it won't fit on a disc with numbers 4 and 5. Incredibly, the Allemande of this suite, which is normally a matter of 7 or 8 minutes, Kniazev clocks in at an amazing 16 minutes...

The bizarre thing, though, is that I absolutely adore his playing, and return to it frequently - it's 'wrong', but it is so so right! If you're going to indulge in a romanticised reading of the suites, why not go the whole hog?

Never even heard of that guy!


My favourite recording is still Rsotropovich's as I'm sure I said earlier on this thread.

[Luke]

Never even heard of that guy!

Big long-haired broodingly good-looking blood-and-thunder young Russian cellist  His Chopin/Rachmaninov disc with Nicolai Lugansky really pulls out all the stops, I'm rather impressed.

[Franco]

He brings to my mind those cavemen guys from the Geico commercials.

[karlhenning]

I knew I'd seen him in an airport somewhere . . . .

[Drasko]

Kniazev plays often in trio with Berezovsky and Makhtin, not bad trio, as can be seen in this classic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG931XPV5VU
or maybe bit more in this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxMS6S4k69k

[DavidRoss]

I knew I'd seen him in an airport somewhere . . . .

Wearing saffron robes and chanting?