Bach Cello Suites

[mc ukrneal]

Just to say I'm really enjoying this set by Isang Enders.
Technically well on top of his craft, stabby staccato bowing, and to my ears somewhat close to Lipkind, but without any of his rather alarming excesses.
Close and unusually dry recording, but without fingerboard (East) or heavy breathing (Zelenka).
Right up there with my current favourites, which include Beschi, Queyras and East.

(sorry, not sure if I've got the hang of this Amazon linky thing)
         [asin]B00MC657YO[/asin]

You have to use the ISIN for the physical cd version, not the mp3 version. That's all. In any case, if you click on yours, it will still get you there (it just won't show until then).

[aukhawk]

Thanks for that - fixed my link now, and I also added another comment to my, er, comments.

I might say I've also listened to a bit from another very recent addition to the catalogue, Arnau Tomàs, but found that unremarkable in a rather old-school middle-of-the-road sort of way.

[Mandryka]

I haven't, but I love his second one so much, I won't likely bother.

Two and a half years years after the event, I can report that you should bother. Partly for the extraordinary tone, dark tone of the cello in the first 5 suites. And second for his way of introducing silence, which is like nothing else I know. It's a completely different kettle of fish from the second, and I find it captures my imagination more than the second. Only 6 is disappointing.

[aukhawk]

Badiarov was a finalist and scored a very good 4th place (out of 30) in the recent Cello Suites blind comparison.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=23936.220

Queyras came 3rd,
Lipkind came 2nd
(these two were quite close, joint 2nd really, all things considered - in the final round, which was the 5th Suite, Lipkind scored better, but over all 4 rounds Queyras averaged better)

I wrote in January:

I might say I've also listened to a bit from another very recent addition to the catalogue, Arnau Tomàs, but found that unremarkable in a rather old-school middle-of-the-road sort of way.

Arnau Tomàs was a clear 1st.

   

  Of course a pool of 'only' 30 contenders was bound to leave out several very good recordings - I've listened to a few more since starting that comparison and I can certainly say now I'm sorry I didn't include Kirschbaum, who I think would have fitted right in to the top 10 at least.

[jlaurson]

I wrote in January:

Arnau Tomàs was a clear 1st.

   

I just listened to that over the weekend, after the label was kind enough to send a copy on over (they are not distributed outside Germany and the UK yet, it seems).
It really IS quite special. There's a lot I enjoy tremendously... maybe even more than the bit in the final. More anon.

[Mandryka]

Anyone developed a view of Thomas Arnau's Bach yet?

[Peter Power Pop]

Anyone developed a view of Thomas Arnau's Bach yet?

Thanks to Spotify, I'm listening to it now:

https://play.spotify.com/album/0t9UoKs0S1X8SXZcjog8qS



I'm not enjoying the way he drags out notes. It's all in the name of "expression" I suppose, but the note-lengthening sounds a little haphazard to me, as if he's doing it at random. The intonation is excellent, and the playing is awfully good, but the way he's playing doesn't make me say, "Wow, that's great."

I'm also not enjoying the acoustic of the recording very much. It sounds a bit too cavernous for me. Because the Cello Suites are chamber music, I prefer to hear them as if they were recorded in a room rather than in a church, which is what it sounds like here. (It makes me wonder how many cellists think to themselves, "I'm in the mood to play Bach's Cello Suites today. Now, where's a church I can play in?")

Overall, I prefer the Bach Cello Suites to be a lot peppier than what I've heard so far from Mr. Tomàs. (So far I've heard the first two Suites.)

My favourite version of the Suites is by Heinrich Schiff. That's also available on Spotify:

https://play.spotify.com/album/33g2FUrWEN7ArOyp3fOAfw

[Mandryka]

The above is a new recording by Matt Haimovitz. Does anyone know what its relation is, exactly, to the Anna Magdalena phrasing? Is it more true to that manuscript than others like Bylsma II or Wispelwey III?

[Mandryka]

I just listened to that over the weekend, after the label was kind enough to send a copy on over (they are not distributed outside Germany and the UK yet, it seems).
It really IS quite special. There's a lot I enjoy tremendously... maybe even more than the bit in the final. More anon.

How've you got on with this? I listened to 2 last night - it's too lyrical and lightweight for me, like Bach cello suites for the cocktail bar.

[aukhawk]

A scathing comment but yes, I can agree with that.  Apart from anything else, the acoustic sounds a bit synthetic to me.

[king ubu]

The above is a new recording by Matt Haimovitz. Does anyone know what its relation is, exactly, to the Anna Magdalena phrasing? Is it more true to that manuscript than others like Bylsma II or Wispelwey III?

Well, she composed them, didn't you know? 

[El Chupacabra]

Does anyone know what its relation is, exactly, to the Anna Magdalena phrasing? Is it more true to that manuscript than others like Bylsma II or Wispelwey III?

There is no original manuscript of the 6 cello suites. The first copy is Anna's. Anna Magdalena served as copyist to his husband longer than most, occasionally copying a vocal or instrumental cantata-part, or a section of it. Her copies include chamber and keyboard music, either complete sets (the violin and cello suites) or possibly once-complete (organ sonatas, WTC I), sometimes with JS (WTC II) and family members (this in the two albums).  Some copies she assisted remain incomplete and  she particularly copied chamber music. Why however, her copying so often included only the notes of the music while JS wrote in the headings, dynamics etc. is open to conjecture to this day. Some say he was supervising her and some find deficiencies in the placement of slurs and other articulation in her copy( fair copy) of the cello suites. The claimed number of errors of her copy is around 70 but the remaining two other copies of that time, Kellner and Westphal's, are open to debate as they are erroneous, too, which led to the 100(almost) editions we have of the suites today...which lets Bylsma and/or Wispelwey's imagination to be utilized.

[Mandryka]

some find deficiencies in the placement of slurs and other articulation in her copy( fair copy) of the cello suites. The claimed number of errors of her copy is around 70

Can someone explain to me what the deficiencies are supposed to be please?

[El Chupacabra]

Can someone explain to me what the deficiencies are supposed to be please?

Pick one of the suites and I'll give you an example. Can you read score?

[Mandryka]

Pick one of the suites and I'll give you an example. Can you read score?

That's very kind of you. Yes I can read a score. The second is the one I'm most interested in at the moment. And I like the 5th and 6th.

[prémont]

Pick one of the suites and I'll give you an example. Can you read score?

Very interesting.

I admit, that I have refrained from studying the articulation indications in A-M Bach's copy in detail, because of the many errors. Actually I think, it is possible to achieve a sustainable idea of Bach´s principles of articulation by studying his indications in the instrumental parts of the cantatas and some of the instrumental music e.g. the sonatas for harpsichord and violin. And I think, this is how most of the leading HIP musicians of to day handle this subject.

[El Chupacabra]

That's very kind of you. Yes I can read a score. The second is the one I'm most interested in at the moment. And I like the 5th and 6th.

Second it is.

This is Courante Bar27 anna:

This is Courante Bar27 keller:


This is Menuet 1 Bars6-8 anna:

This is Menuet 1 Bars6-8 keller:


and one for an obvious pitch:
This is Gigue mm27-28 common:

the Keller copy, the Westphal copy, the Traeg copy all indicate the last note of 28 is E (moving D-E-F to the next bar) but Anna happens to scribe a natural B....which is the final note of the previous two bars

By the way, while checking the books now I saw that Bylsma is a solid supporter of A.M. copy.

[kishnevi]

The Menuet differences are substantial enough to suggest Keller represents a revision. I am not knowledgeable about the manuscript history, but is it possible Bach revised the suites at some point after Anna made her copy?

[Mandryka]

Second it is.

This is Courante Bar27 anna:

This is Courante Bar27 keller:


This is Menuet 1 Bars6-8 anna:

This is Menuet 1 Bars6-8 keller:


and one for an obvious pitch:
This is Gigue mm27-28 common:

the Keller copy, the Westphal copy, the Traeg copy all indicate the last note of 28 is E (moving D-E-F to the next bar) but Anna happens to scribe a natural B....which is the final note of the previous two bars

By the way, while checking the books now I saw that Bylsma is a solid supporter of A.M. copy.

Thanks, the difference in the minuet is the sort of thing I was expecting through reading. Re Bylsma, I know he is a supporter in theory, what I'm not clear about is how much this support comes out in his recordings.

[Pat B]

Thanks, the difference in the minuet is the sort of thing I was expecting through reading. Re Bylsma, I know he is a supporter in theory, what I'm not clear about is how much this support comes out in his recordings.

IIRC he went down this path after his second recording.

I'm with Jeffrey: the minuet differences look more like a revision than a transcription error.