The Early Music Club (EMC)

Started by zamyrabyrd, October 06, 2007, 10:31:49 PM

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Mandryka

#900
I've tried to read some of the images of the manuscripts on the web, but it's a struggle, partly because I'm not used to the handwriting, and partly because the old French is a bit weird. Still I don't feel as though it's as far removed from modern French as Chaucer from English, and I can read Chaucer, or I could years ago. I bet it wouldn't take much to learn how to read the writing in those manuscripts too. I once met a curator of French medieval manuscripts at The Bodlean. Her spoken French was not very good, but she could read those things!

Every Machaut poem I've read in CD booklets has been fun, and I'd quite like to dip into Le Voir Dit a bit more seriously some time. I really should hunt around for a version in modern French. There's one published by Livre de Poche, I'll be in Paris next week for a couple of days, I'll see if I can pick up a copy.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

San Antone

Quote from: Mandryka on January 03, 2017, 10:10:40 AM
I've tried to read some of the images of the manuscripts on the web, but it's a struggle, partly because I'm not used to the handwriting, and partly because the old French is a bit weird. Still I don't feel as though it's as far removed from modern French as Chaucer from English, and I can read Chaucer, or I could years ago. I bet it wouldn't take much to learn how to read the writing in those manuscripts too. I once met a curator of French medieval manuscripts at The Bodlean. Her spoken French was not very good, but she could read those things!

Every Machaut poem I've read in CD booklets has been fun, and I'd quite like to dip into Le Voir Dit a bit more seriously some time. I really should hunt around for a version in modern French. There's one published by Livre de Poche, I'll be in Paris next week for a couple of days, I'll see if I can pick up a copy.

I wouldn't even consider purchasing the facsimile without knowing that there is already the first volume of The Complete Poetry and Music of Guillaume de Machaut with the French originals and facing English translations published.



I think there are to be two volumes, each $30.00, and I would purchase these as well so that I could make sense of the texts.  But I am more interested in the notated music.


kishnevi

Cross post from the main Listening thread


First listen
[asin]B01K68F27G[/asin]

The original manuscript has 43 songs, seventeen of which are performed here, with two arrangements by Johannes Tinctoris (c. 1530/1535-1511).  The songs are played in a diversity of ways: a capella, one or more voices with instruments, all instruments.
The result is effective for me.
Singers, one of whom is female (I think. Northern/Central European names can sometimes be very unisex to my Anglophone ears)
Els Janssens-Vanmunster
Raitis Grigalis
Matthias Spoerry
Instruments
Elisabeth Rumsey viola d'arco
Baptiste Romain vielle and lira da braccio
Marc Lewon (director) viola d'arco, gittern, plectrum lute
BTW, an exact facsimile of the manuscript has been published in Spain. List price is noted at €3000

ComposerOfAvantGarde

I am currently listening to this and I was wondering if any people more knowledgeable about this kind of music could perhaps tell me a little more about the style. I am curious as to the fact that there is instrumental accompaniment on this when I actually didn't expect that so much. Is that common for this music? In my limited understanding of early music, instrumental music was rarely written down like vocal (and especially sacred) music was.........although I might be wrong.

Quote from: jessop on January 05, 2017, 01:15:42 PM
Some things I currently want to learn more about. I love this kind of music :)



Mahlerian

Quote from: jessop on January 05, 2017, 01:21:15 PM
I am currently listening to this and I was wondering if any people more knowledgeable about this kind of music could perhaps tell me a little more about the style. I am curious as to the fact that there is instrumental accompaniment on this when I actually didn't expect that so much. Is that common for this music? In my limited understanding of early music, instrumental music was rarely written down like vocal (and especially sacred) music was.........although I might be wrong.

Instruments were often used to double or replace vocal parts in both Medieval and Renaissance secular music, though church music remained primarily a capella (which is what that term means).

Whether to do this and which instruments to use are up to the individual performers, and this remains true up through early Monteverdi.

Incidentally, I love that set.  Beautiful music.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

San Antone

Les Escholiers De Paris : Motets, Songs & Estampies Of The Thirteenth Century



A great recording from 1992 by Dominique Vellard and the Ensemble Gilles Binchois, and one that is not that well known. 

San Antone

Anthologie chantee des Troubadours XIIe and XIIIe siecles



The 248 songs of the troubadours identified here are recreated and recorded in a lively and original artistic approach that takes into account the latest work on the interpretation of medieval Occitan lyrics and interpreting medieval notation.  Troba Vox Editions is a label devoted to the music of the Troubadours Art Ensemble  and other groups specializing in this music.  The recordings are distributed by Abeille Musique, and available for streaming on Qobuz.Com and the Naxos Music Library.



Mandryka

Quote from: Mahlerian on January 05, 2017, 01:36:24 PM
though church music remained primarily a capella (which is what that term means).


Shall we look at this can of worms?  Does anyone know if what Mahlerian says here is the case, and what the evidence is?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

ComposerOfAvantGarde

Quote from: Mandryka on January 07, 2017, 05:24:43 AM
Shall we look at this can of worms?  Does anyone know if what Mahlerian says here is the case, and what the evidence is?
Church music remained of the church because that is what church music is ;D

San Antone

Quote from: Mandryka on January 07, 2017, 05:24:43 AM
Shall we look at this can of worms?  Does anyone know if what Mahlerian says here is the case, and what the evidence is?

Because the church prohibited instruments other than organ, and that was only played in between sung sections, not with the singers, they were not used throughout the Medieval period and even well into the Renaissance.  I think for a significant amount of time after still only the organ was used.  I am not sure when other instruments were used in liturgical settings.

San Antone

Apropos the discussion of instruments use in church music during the Middle Ages -

machaut : la messe de nostre dame
rene clemencic | clemencic consort



From what I gather from listening to the recording, since I can't read the Japanese notes, Clemencic is trying to present the work within a realistic context of the day of the mass:


  • first we hear peasant songs outside the church
    then organ alternating with communal singing of processional hymns
    then the mass interspersed with other appropriate chants (as well as some inappropriate instrument sections)


An unusual but interesting method of presenting the mass - but I would vastly have preferred that the instrumental playing between the sung mass sections have been organ-only and not included peasant dance music which is completely against what would have occurred in the 14th century.  It is an odd thing, since Clemencic seems to be aiming at a realistic impression of what would have happened during the period.

The actual performance of the mass is fairly straight forward and very well done.  But because of the many interruptions this performance of the mass is seriously compromised, imo.

ComposerOfAvantGarde

^^^^^^^For a casual early music listener, would that recording still be worth getting? Or is it rather more suited to those with a lot more knowledge of musical performances in the era.........

San Antone

Quote from: jessop on January 07, 2017, 03:58:56 PM
^^^^^^^For a casual early music listener, would that recording still be worth getting? Or is it rather more suited to those with a lot more knowledge of musical performances in the era.........

It is probably more enjoyable for someone only generally interested in early music since it offers a variety of styles from the period and the actual performances are very good.

San Antone

I had been looking forward to hearing the performance of the Machaut mass included on this disk of Bohemian Christmas music:



Early Music New York, Frederick Renz, dir.

Frederick Renz has quite an early music resume:  studied harpsichord with Gustav Leonhardt in Holland as a Fulbright Scholar. He was keyboard soloist with the legendary New York Pro Musica Antiqua for six seasons and founded the Early Music Foundation when the former organization disbanded in 1974. 

Then there's this: the Early Music New York presents and records music of the 12th through the 18th centuries, including historical dramatic and dance works. Medieval and Renaissance repertoire is performed by a chamber ensemble of voices and instruments without conductor.

The polyphony of the mass is accompanied throughout by trombones.  This practice was prevalent in decades prior to the 1970s and fell out of practice once the historically informed movement matured.  It now sounds strange to my ears, but other than that the singing sounds good despite the overly reverberant acoustic.

Mandryka

Quote from: jessop on January 07, 2017, 03:58:56 PM
^^^^^^^For a casual early music listener, would that recording still be worth getting? Or is it rather more suited to those with a lot more knowledge of musical performances in the era.........

It's quite medieval sounding.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Quote from: sanantonio on January 07, 2017, 03:55:31 PM
Apropos the discussion of instruments use in church music during the Middle Ages -

machaut : la messe de nostre dame
rene clemencic | clemencic consort



From what I gather from listening to the recording, since I can't read the Japanese notes, Clemencic is trying to present the work within a realistic context of the day of the mass:


  • first we hear peasant songs outside the church
    then organ alternating with communal singing of processional hymns
    then the mass interspersed with other appropriate chants (as well as some inappropriate instrument sections)


An unusual but interesting method of presenting the mass - but I would vastly have preferred that the instrumental playing between the sung mass sections have been organ-only and not included peasant dance music which is completely against what would have occurred in the 14th century.  It is an odd thing, since Clemencic seems to be aiming at a realistic impression of what would have happened during the period.

The actual performance of the mass is fairly straight forward and very well done.  But because of the many interruptions this performance of the mass is seriously compromised, imo.

It's a sort of medievalism maybe, you know, let's make the old music sound exotic and colourful, a similar idea in Peres and Schmelzer but implemented differently. Anyway I think the book to read on this is by Daniel Leech-Wilkinson, but it's too expensive for me.

I find this general pattern really interesting. Orientalism and Medievalism, interpreting otherness in time and in space. Someone started a thread here about what you would study if you were to have a year of research. Well, I think this is a good contender.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

San Antone

Quote from: Mandryka on January 08, 2017, 01:18:10 AM
It's a sort of medievalism maybe, you know, let's make the old music sound exotic and colourful, a similar idea in Peres and Schmelzer but implemented differently. Anyway I think the book to read on this is by Daniel Leech-Wilkinson, but it's too expensive for me.

I find this general pattern really interesting. Orientalism and Medievalism, interpreting otherness in time and in space. Someone started a thread here about what you would study if you were to have a year of research. Well, I think this is a good contender.

I have the Leech-Wilkinson book on the mass, but bought it years ago when it wasn't that expensive.  His book is very good for analysis of the music, maybe too technical for a non-musician, but he only gives a short biographic overview and a paragraph or two on the whole endowment/memorial aspect.

BTW, I heard back from Elizabeth Eva Leach; she replied to my email last week.  She basically agreed with me that all the evidence surrounding Machaut's will, endowment, memorial concerning funding the performance of the mass after his death is circumstantial but is not "completely weak" however, she also says this "It might be that Machaut's Messe was the mass, but it might equally well be another (probably plainsong) mass."   She also cites a long paper by Roger Bowers (which I downloaded from JStor).

Bowers uses different logic than Anne Robertson who argues the strongest for the mass as memorial in her book, "Guillaume de Machaut and Reims," but still considers the mass was written for a unique purpose: maybe a memorial or maybe as a gift to the cathedral upon his retirement there.  It is interesting that Robertson uses a translation of the cathedral plaque which takes a few liberties with the Latin in order to strengthen her argument, whereas Bowers is more accurate acknowledging that the word "petitorium" is a legal term and hints at a legal proceeding and as a result of a less than satisfactory resolution at court for the Machaut estate, an endowment was collected by friends . 

This is different from how Robertson translates the word as a "personal petition" by the Machaut brothers, and which implies a much more overt gesture by Machaut about his intentions for performance of the mass. 

So, I think Schmelzer's entire hypothesis is founded on circumstantial evidence for which different conclusions can be drawn.  I would have preferred had he simply said "this is how I wish to perform the music because it brings the music alive to 21st century ears" and not gone into his psuedo-intellectual explanation about the afterlife of the work.

San Antone

Wonderful disc from the L'Oiseau Lyre M&R box ~

Matteo da Perugia : Secular Works
Medieval Ensemble of London | Timothy & Peter Davies



His surviving compositions include mass movements, two isorhythmic motets and both Italian and French secular songs. Willi Apel regarded Matteo as the principal composer of his generation, in whose compositions one could trace the stylistic transition between the mannerism of the 1380s to the 'modern style' of the early 15th century. This viewpoint was challenged by Besseler; since then Matteo's position in history has remained an open question, and his music awaits a thorough stylistic study.

Some preliminary observations can be made, however. His cantus lines contain quirky leaps (the diminished 4th is a favourite interval), often from unstable sonorities that precede expected cadential arrivals. He often surrounds structural pitches with appogiaturas and auxiliary notes and embellishes his melodies with detailed, fast-moving ornamental figurations, notated in I-MOe α.M.5.24 with an expanded arsenal of italianate figures. A favourite device in the songs is to construct a melodic sequence upon a complex or syncopated rhythmic pattern (for example in Le greygnour bien and Le grant desir). He often begins phrases with imitation in all three voices. Several of his works explore a more adventurous chromaticism than is typical of this period.
  [Ursula Günther and Anne Stone. "Matteo da Perugia." Grove Music Online. Oxford Music Online. Oxford University Press. Web. 13 Jan. 2017.]

San Antone

Quote from: sanantonio on January 20, 2017, 04:46:07 AM
Dufay : Choral Music
Cantica Symphona



Wish they'd left their instruments in the cases, but otherwise, the singing is good and a nice selection of works.

I am not familiar with this group, Cantica Symphona.  I wonder what is the historical basis for using these instruments accompanying the voices?  Not overdone, just curious.  There is plenty of contemporaneous information about how much the "church Fathers" detested instruments at church.  And this continues until the late 16th century (organ excepted) but it is not to say that the amount of vitriol might also have been a reaction to what was being done despite the church's preference.

Thus we find that Erasmus, writing more than a century after Machaut's death, had cause to criticize instrumental music in much the same way as the Fathers had done, but with the significant addition that it was now to be heard 'even in the holy temple, just as in the theatre'. 

This was a comparatively new development around 1500, and one that is corroborated by other writers.

San Antone

This month's Early Music America magazine has a feature article on women composers during the periods from 9th-17th century.  One caught my eye (literally), Barbara Strozzi (1619-1677).  I'd heard of her before, but the painting of her is a bit risque.



Lady Gaga has got nothing on her!

https://www.youtube.com/v/aDBPfhG-gVk