Charles Ives

[Joe Barron]

In my opinion, MTT is the best version of the 4th available on CD, though, as with any masterpiece of this stature, no one recording or performance holds all its secrets. Overall though, I think MTT best captures the feeling of the Symphony - the questioning first movement, chaotic and dazzling second, noble and beautiful third, and visionary fourth movement. He really is the Ives man as far as I am concerned, especially in the later orchestral works. I'm sure others will have opinions on this too.

What he said. The Serebrier and Stokowski recordings are also very good. The Serbrier was my favorite for a long while, and I still like it for the engineering and balance of the orchestra, if balance has any meaning when it comes to Ives.

Nevertheless, I still wish Levine would record Three Places with the BSO, or even the Juilliard Orchestra. His reading really is very beautiful, especially in the St. Gauden's  movement.

[bhodges]

And a third hearty "yes" for the MTT recording of the Fourth, and part of it is the fantastic playing from the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.  (Although I like the other recordings mentioned, too.)

--Bruce

[MDL]

The 3CD MTT Ives cycle often turns up for about £8 in the HMV sale. Maybe I'll grab it next time I see it.

[bhodges]

That seems like a really great price--definitely consider it.  And if that set includes the Holidays, MTT's reading of those is one of my top 3 or 4 Ives recordings.

--Bruce

[MDL]

That seems like a really great price--definitely consider it.  And if that set includes the Holidays, MTT's reading of those is one of my top 3 or 4 Ives recordings.

--Bruce

That's the one MTT Ives recording I already own. I don't play it as often as the 4th, though. I must dig it out and give it another whirl. That's the one with two versions of Unanswered Question, isn't it?

[bhodges]

That's right!

--Bruce

[Guido]

What he said. The Serebrier and Stokowski recordings are also very good. The Serbrier was my favorite for a long while, and I still like it for the engineering and balance of the orchestra, if balance has any meaning when it comes to Ives.

I didn't even know about the Serbrier recording... will have to search for that one.

Also I just learned about the John Adams / Ensemble Modern Orchestra & Collegium Vocale Gent recording, which has been recommended to me as another extraordinary recording of this extraordinary piece and I see that Scott Mortensen (who's heard everything!) agrees.
http://www.musicweb.uk.net/Ives/RR_Sym_4.htm
As he says though that version is pretty pricey for what it is, but I might end up getting it.

The earlier version of the Unanswered Question makes for fascinating listening, and I think Ives revisions were all good - amazing, for instance, what changing the last note of the trumpet motive each time can do for the whole composition. My favourite version of the Unanswered Question has always been Bernstein's DG recording (coupled with the Second Symphony, and all those other wonderful orchestral miniatures). Recently I have also very much enjoyed MTT's recording on RCA (actually that whole CD is great, rising far above the 'Ives taster' CD that it might be bought as).

[MDL]

Has anyone got an opinion on the various realisations of the Universe Symphony? I've got the Centaur recording which unfortunately lurks in the dusty cobweb-strewn corner of my collection that is the CDs-I've-only-ever-played-once section. It's yet another in the lo-o-ong list of CDs that I need to have another go at.  I just remember it being a grey, amorphous, uneventful and overlong trudge. If you think it's a masterpiece, then please tell me I'm wrong, explain why I'm wrong, and I'll listen to it again this weekend, I promise! 

[Guido]

Has anyone got an opinion on the various realisations of the Universe Symphony? I've got the Centaur recording which unfortunately lurks in the dusty cobweb-strewn corner of my collection that is the CDs-I've-only-ever-played-once section. It's yet another in the lo-o-ong list of CDs that I need to have another go at.  I just remember it being a grey, amorphous, uneventful and overlong trudge. If you think it's a masterpiece, then please tell me I'm wrong, explain why I'm wrong, and I'll listen to it again this weekend, I promise! 

Nope all three of the current realisations are dreary awful messes, and really reflect far more on the composers who completed them, than what Ives actually wrote. A critical edition of all the materials that Ives produced for this Symphony is in preparation, but won't be out for a while, and Sinclair will be recording a new completion of the projected first movement based on these materials (and very little that Ives did not write) in 2 years time.

[Guido]

The new 'Sets' CD is now available on itunes, the physical CD being released on the 27th.

You can read he liner notes here:

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.559353#

[Joe Barron]

Herewith my Amazon review of the much awaited Third Orchestral Set. There I gave it three stars. Here I give it three smileys.


Editors fail to summon the spirit of Ives
It is time to stop picking over Charles Ives' bones in hopes of putting together yet one more realization. At his death, Ives left sketches for a Third Orchestral Set, and on this disk, James Sinclair and the Malmo Symphony present the premiere performance of the work, which was edited, realized or completed -- pick your process -- by David Gray Porter and Nørs Josephson. The result occupies a considerably lower stratum in the Ives canon than the first two orchestral sets, which are also recorded here. In the booklet, Ives biographer calls the third movement an "uncanny" example of Ives' late "sublime style," the pinnacle of which is the finale of the Fourth Symphony. It doesn't come close. It lacks the three-dimensionality and the sense of space Ives most likely would have added had he summoned the energy to complete it.
Whereas his mature, completed orchestral music proceeds on several levels, this piece, titled simply "Andante," sounds two-dimensional, as if Josephson had laid the sketches out end to end, expanding them in time but not in space. The first two movements feel like rehashes of earlier pieces. One hears echoes of "Thanksgiving" and "The Robert Browning Overture" but without the grandeur, drive or urgency of those works. At 28 minutes, the Third Orchestral Set is almost as long as its two predecessors combined, yet only half as full.
The good news is that Sinclair's readings of the first two orchestral sets on this CD are very fine indeed. He gives us yet another version of the first, better known as "Three Places in New England," bringing the total to four: the chamber version Ives prepared for Nicholas Slonimsky in 1931; the expansion taken up by orchestras when the piece began to catch on, which consist of the chamber arrangement with a larger sting section; the original orchestration, prepared by James Sinclair and recorded, to my knowledge, only by the Philadelphia Orchestra under Eugene Ormandy, for RCA; and this one, the so-called "First Version," in which, according to Swafford, Ives pared down the complexities of his initial sketches to make the work more palatable to the orchestras of the 1910s. It didn't happen, and perhaps we should be grateful. The later, restored versions are tighter and more exciting, especially in the Putnam's Camp movement, which here lacks the raucous explosion we've come to expect at the end. Still, it is essentially the same piece, and unmistakably Ives. Sinclair and company capture the ghostly lyricism of the first movement, here titled "Impression of the St. Gaudens in Boston Common," almost as well as Levine and the BSO did when I heard them perform it live a few years ago. Believe me, that is high praise. And the last movement, famous "Housatonic at Stockbridge," retains all of its mystery and power on this CD.
The Second Orchestral Set, another true example of the sublime style and one of Ives's greatest scores, is also well served in this recording.
I recommend this CD for its performances of the music Charles Ives actually finished and sent out into the world. The Third Orchestral Set, completed by others who lack his audacity and vision, offers little more than a historical footnote.

[bhodges]

Most interesting, Joe, thanks.  I admit I'm somewhat curious to hear the Third set, even given the obvious caveats.  And I can always use another recording of the first two.

--Bruce

[Joe Barron]

Most interesting, Joe, thanks.  I admit I'm somewhat curious to hear the Third set, even given the obvious caveats.  And I can always use another recording of the first two.

--Bruce

Well, one can never have too many recordings of the first two, and the third does have historical interest. 

In the booklet, Swafford says almost every note in the Third set was written by Ives, and that might actually be part of the problem. As I say in the review, I think Ives would have added flesh to the skeletal sketches heard on the CD. What was needed to "realize" the piece was the vision and sense of exploration Ives himself brought to composition, and the editors, trying to be respectful, don't provide it.

On the other hand, what this CD teaches us --- if we needed teaching --- is that Ives was not just some careless amateur who haphazardly slapped his music together, adding more and more layers without regard for practicality or even for sound. The different versions of Three Places, and the single, solid version of the Set No. 2 prove he worked and reworked his music diligently to achieve the effect he desired. The music he completed has shape and drive, often with the kind of shattering climaxes that can result only from attentive preparation.

[Joe Barron]

Last night I had a beautiful dream: Remembering how German Sony issued Columbia's entire stravinsky catalog in 22-cd bargain box, I thought how wonderful it would be if it did the same with Ives. Many --- actually, most --- of the great Ives recordings of the 60s and 70s were released by Columbia. They would make a great single collection, which would include the four symphonies (Ormandy, Bernstein, Stowkowski), Three Places (Ormandy), Holidays (Bernstein), the Browning Overture and Lincoln, the Great Commoner (Stokowski), the string quartets (Juilliard), piano sonatas (Masselos and Kirkpatrick), songs (Evelyn Lear and Thomas Stewart), chamber music (Kalish and Zukofsky), choral music with the Gregg Smith singers and Gunther Schuller's wonderful "Calcium Light Night," as well as a bonus disk of interviews with peoople like Bernard Herrman and Elliott Carter. There may be more. They are all terrific, but aside from the symphonies, little else mentioned here has been rereleased on CD.

[Guido]

Last night I had a beautiful dream: Remembering how German Sony issued Columbia's entire stravinsky catalog in 22-cd bargain box, I thought how wonderful it would be if it did the same with Ives. Many --- actually, most --- of the great Ives recordings of the 60s and 70s were released by Columbia. They would make a great single collection, which would include the four symphonies (Ormandy, Bernstein, Stowkowski), Three Places (Ormandy), Holidays (Bernstein), the Browning Overture and Lincoln, the Great Commoner (Stokowski), the string quartets (Juilliard), piano sonatas (Masselos and Kirkpatrick), songs (Evelyn Lear and Thomas Stewart), chamber music (Kalish and Zukofsky), choral music with the Gregg Smith singers and Gunther Schuller's wonderful "Calcium Light Night," as well as a bonus disk of interviews with peoople like Bernard Herrman and Elliott Carter. There may be more. They are all terrific, but aside from the symphonies, little else mentioned here has been rereleased on CD.

Yes that would be great (also reissing that complete Ruggles LP set that MTT did...)

Is the version of "Lincoln, the Great Commoner" an orchestral version of the song? - am very intrigued - is there another recording of it?

Interesting review of the Third Set. I have only listened to it a few times so have yet to fully make my mind up, but it certainly doesn't produce the feeling of instant excitement, wonder and pathos in me that an echt Ives score would do. I think some of the realisations have been successful however - The Emerson Concerto for instance. The Universe Symphony completions have all been utterly awful thus far, and I think no full version will ever be completed which we could say will truly be a work by Ives. But then he did pass on the buck to other composers for this piece before he died.

[Guido]

By the way I just posted a recording of the Fourth Symphony at the Broadcast corner. Its not great quality, and you can't hear all the lovely details, but I recommend listening at least to the third movement which goes beautifully.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,42.msg194628.html#new

[Guido]

OK having just listened to the 3rd Orchestral set another 2 times I have to fully agree with Joe's sentiments... A real shame as a lot of the stuff sounds like it could have been very nice had Ives been able to focus more attention and effort on it.

[Joe Barron]

OK having just listened to the 3rd Orchestral set another 2 times I have to fully agree with Joe's sentiments... A real shame as a lot of the stuff sounds like it could have been very nice had Ives been able to focus more attention and effort on it.

Many composers left unfinished work behind, and the realizatoins or completion of those works by others does not affect our assessment of the music the composers did complete. Fortunately, we have much greater music by Ives to appreciate.

Speaking of which: This week I received Holidays Symphony and Three Places with Eugene Ormandy and the Philadeplhia Orchestra. For some reason. the CD is avqailable only from Amazon Japan. It's a terrific performance, even if RCA's recording quality isn;t verything it could be. The Holidays especailly has more feeling than any other performance I know. I had a good friend who used to play with the orchestra, and he was incredulous when I told him how much I liked the recording when it came out on LP. He didn't think Ormandy would be the man to conduct mature Ives, but as I remimded him, despite its modernist streak, the Holidays is a nostaligic, romantic  work, and Ormandy specializes in those qualities. He plays Ives like Tchaikovsky, and it works more with Ives and it does with Tchaikovsky. The orchestra plays its heart out during the marches and the polyrhythmic explosions and the finale of Thanksgiving acieves real grandeur. An underrated --- more accurately, an unknown --- recording.

[Joe Barron]

And speaking of the Holidays Symphony: I was impressed yet again yesterday by the way portions of Thanksgiving seem to anticpate Aaron Copland's populiast, prairie style. To my knowledge, Copland was not diirectly influenced by Ives.

[Guido]

Interesting Joe - I have MTT's Holidays and also Zinman's. Maybe I should look into getting that one too? The Holidays symphony is for me the most elusive Ives score - I like all the movements individually very well, but find it difficult to see the whole as a symphony - there just seem to be far too many ideas! Of course it was not concieved as a whole if my memory serves correctly, so this may be part of the issue. The foreshadowing of that later style of American music is just remarkable in how close some of it sounds (also portions of the second and third Symphonies of course), but Ives having found it, chose to move on to his 'mature sound'.

On a completely unrelated note, the last chord of the Second Symphony makes me chuckle every time!

Joe - what are your thoughts on the Emerson Concerto? Again you can tell that it's not quite real Ives as there seems to be a bit of a lack of subtlety, perhaps reminscent of the Robert Browning Overture, but overall I love it's clangerous soundworld, reminscent of Ruggles Suntreader perhaps (though predating it) or maybe even the more atonal sections of the Rite of Spring (again not an influence). I think this is the most successful Ives reconstruction that I have heard.