Charles Ives

[Joe Barron]

Whatever, dude.

[karlhenning]

You did say that, and I understood that, but I am curious as to how Swafford connected "anomaly" to "sport." I am not familiar with that usage.

I think it's a (for instance) biological reading of sport.

[karlhenning]

I take it that he meant to reuse the word "sport" for its botanical meaning:

Ah, you got there first, I trow.

You know, I still have not read either of Swafford's books (Ives or Brahms) . . . and the reviews I read of the Brahms book disinclined me to read, I fear.

[Joe Barron]

 

[Guido]

The Swafford Ives biography is one of the most engaging composer biographies that I have read and his love of Ives music is palpable on each page (which I think is vital to really good musical criticism and biography). Highly recommended.


The Carter/Ives link is a very interesting one and one on which much has been said (in this thread even I think). Carter's criticism of Ives work has always struck me as a rather large knife in the back of the artist who has clearly influenced him the most, and his famous accusations against Ives I think speak more of him as much as they might do of Ives - clearly he wanted to separate himself and lessen the impact of the great man - understandable for an artist trying to find his own voice of course, but they need to be seen for what they are and not taken as historical fact. The main difference between Ives and Carter of course is that Carter has never found any use for quotation - the fact that he compares so much music to fascism  and war (minimalism for instance)tells me that the tonal music of 'yesteryear' means the war and pre-war years for him - the supression of modernism and individualism and the homogenising and controlling of ideas and people. He is not at all sentimental or nostalgic type I think.

[Joe Barron]

Well said, Guido, as always. The "knife" of which you speak may indeed have been psychologically motivated. The idea has certainly been raised before. Carter's lifelong ambiguity towards Ives's achivement certainly speaks to seomthing going on at deeper level than just an aesthetic differnce.

It should be noted, however, that when Carter talked about Ives's revisions to his scores, "jacking up" the level of dissonance and so forth, he was careful to state that he regarded it as a secondary issue. He never accused Ives of dishonesty, and he was quick to point out that what mattered is what the music was actually doing, not when it was written. Of course, no one heeded that caveat in the ensuing battle over Ives's chronology.

Carter has never rejected tonal music per se, and he has said that his favorite music is Mozart's three da Ponte operas, but he has expressed distate for the way tonality has been handled by younger composers. He believes they have not properly learned counterpoint or the ways changes in key relate to one another. In short, if they want to imitate Mozart, they simply have to do a better job.

As for the quotations, Carter once said that Ives too often let the quotation stand without comment, or something to that effect. In his book, All Made of Tunes, Burkholder says this statement betrays a lack of understanding of the use to which Ives put his quotations. Odd to accuse someone as sophisticated as Carter of naivete, but it does point up the difference of opinion on the matter.

Carter's music is never nostalgic (Figment No. 2, Remembering Mr. Ives, is a significant exception), but you're right to say he absorbed more from Ives than proabably from any other composer. I have said in the past that the Concerto for Orchestra would not have been feasible without the example of the second movement of the Ives #4. Listen to them back to back sometime: you'll hear a similarity of argument. Carter's piece is more fully worked out, and more schematic in the use of the orchestra, and there's certainly no attempt on his part to copy Ives, but the projection, the arc of the discourse, is similar in both pieces. The similarity is most evident in the finales: a big, tumultuous bang followed by a breaking up, ending in a diminuendo--sudden in Ives's case,  gradual in Carter's.

The example of The Fourth of July also shows up in several big pieces from the middle period, particualrly the Piano Concerto.

I remember once speaking to Anne Schreffler (editor of Carter's letters), and she said that for all their differenes, Carter is the one composer who is carrying on what she called "The Ives Project," by which she meant the expression of the multiplicity of life through music.

[Guido]

Didn't know the caveat I am ashamed to say... But thanks for that post - all fascinating stuff.

I'll listen to the concerto for orchestra in that context next time (what a wonderful piece that is!).

[Guido]

Just as an aside - this thread is a bastion of thoughtfulness on this forum. Ives more than any other composer really makes me think - about life, relationships, beauty.

[Joe Barron]

Just as an aside - this thread is a bastion of thoughtfulness on this forum. Ives more than any other composer really makes me think - about life, relationships, beauty.

I always thought that I just liked weird stuff.

[bhodges]

Just as an aside - this thread is a bastion of thoughtfulness on this forum. Ives more than any other composer really makes me think - about life, relationships, beauty.

Great comment, and I could agree with this.  For many years Ives was my favorite composer of all.  When I first heard some of those Bernstein/New York Philharmonic recordings from the 1960s I was completely transported.  (I still have many of the original LPs, which I am unwilling to part with.) 

--Bruce

[Guido]

Great comment, and I could agree with this.  For many years Ives was my favorite composer of all.  When I first heard some of those Bernstein/New York Philharmonic recordings from the 1960s I was completely transported.  (I still have many of the original LPs, which I am unwilling to part with.) 

--Bruce

Have you fallen out of love, or just grown up out of the loving one composer above all others?

[bhodges]

He-he...the latter.    If I have a "top ten list" he's still on it, for sure. 

--Bruce

[karlhenning]

The Fourth live at Symphony Hall was such a wonderful impression, I haven't brought myself to revisiting it on CD.

[Guido]

Just saw this - the 114 songs are on IMSLP which is great. I have my own copy of course, but am glad to have them available wherever and whenever!

Happy exploring!

http://imslp.org/wiki/114_Songs_%28Ives%2C_Charles%29

[Joe Barron]

I hadn't remembered until just this week that Mary Bell, the recipient of my Ives envelope, was interviewed in Vivian Perlis' great book, Charles Ives Remembered. In the interview, Bell provides chronology of relationship with Ives. She first met in him Berlin in the summer of 1932 and first sang his songs in Hamburg in the December of that year. The envelope I have, with its cancellation of Nov. 28, 1931, predates all that. Bell says she wrote to Ives first, and he wrote back saying he was sending her a copy of his songs — probably under separate cover, though this is unclear from the interview. My envelope might therefore have contained Ives's first letter to Bell or another early letter saying he was coming to Europe.

The Iveses' trip to Europe in the early lasted nearly a year: they stayed in England, Germany and Italy.

[Guido]

I have been pondering the song Grantchester and whether Ives visited the place (near Cambridge, England) during his vacationing... Cambridge is a popular tourist spot, and is near to London - do we know if he went there?

[Joe Barron]

I have been pondering the song Grantchester and whether Ives visited the place (near Cambridge, England) during his vacationing... Cambridge is a popular tourist spot, and is near to London - do we know if he went there?

God, you people are never satisifed ...

[Guido]

What the snark?

[Joe Barron]

What the snark?

Well, I give you some great info, and you want more. You just take, take, take. I mean, good Lord, I'm only one man. 

I really don't know any of Ives's English itinerary. You might check the Swafford bio. When I have time later this week, I'll go through some of my other books. I do know he visited the Abbey Road Studios in London, where he recorded the Alcotts and the Emerson transcriptions. I'm sure you've seen the classic photo of Ives, Cowell, Ruggles and John Becker walking across the street single file. There were all sorts of little clues in it that led to rumors Ruggles had died.

[Egebedieff]

I have been pondering the song Grantchester and whether Ives visited the place (near Cambridge, England) during his vacationing... Cambridge is a popular tourist spot, and is near to London - do we know if he went there?

Pity there's no Rupert Brook nearby.

Googled snippets apropos Darwin beetle searching and Grantchester

"Archdeacon Watkins, another old college friend of my father's, remembers him unearthing beetles in the willows between Cambridge and Grantchester, and speaks of a certain beetle the the remembrance of whose name is Crux major"

    '"But no pursuit at Cambridge was followed with nearly so much eagerness or gave me so much pleasure as collecting beetles. It was the mere passion for collecting, for I did not dissect them and rarely compared their external characters with published descriptions, but got them named anyhow. I will give a proof of my zeal: one day, on tearing off some old bark, I saw two rare beetles and seized one in each hand; then I saw a third and new kind, which I could not bear to lose, so that I popped the one which I held in my right hand into my mouth. Alas it ejected some intensely acrid fluid, which burnt my tongue so that I was forced to spit the beetle out, which was lost, as well as the third one."'

    '"I must tell you what happened to me on the banks of the Cam in my early entomological days; under a piece of bark I found two carabi (I forget which) & caught one in each hand, when lo & behold I saw a sacred Panagæus crux major; I could not bear to give up either of my Carabi, & to lose Panagæus was out of the question, so that in despair I gently seized one of the carabi between my teeth, when to my unspeakable disgust & pain the little inconsiderate beast squirted his acid down my throat & I lost both Carabi & Panagus!"'

'