Charles Ives

[Leo K.]

I realize I haven't written anything about my trip to Danbury the weekend of Oct. 31. Not much to say about it really, except that when we were visiting the Ives family plots at Wooster Cemetery, Nancy Sudik, our tour guide, told us about for Saranne (Sally) Ives Wilkes, Moss's daughter, who is still living and in her late eighties. Her stone, with the date of death blank, waits for her in a row of newer stones nearer the road than those of the family founders. Sally visits by Nancy's office at the Danbury Music Center occasionally, and she once told Nancy that all of the Iveses were "stuffy" --- all of them, that is, except Uncle Charlie and Aunt Harmony.

On Sunday, Nov. 1, the Danbury Symphony (with Nancy in the horn section) played the Ives No. 2 on a program that also included the Hebrides Overture and the Enigma Variations. Ariel Rudiakov conducted. It was a tight, rousing performance, and a lot of fun, despite some intonation problems in the strings. Not my favorite Ives -- the alter music is that --- but always worth a listen. (One of the musicians told me afterwards that she asked a violinist if she could hit all the notes, and the violinist replied, "If I could hit all the notes, I would have had a very different life.") This is an ingenious, a brilliant feat of contrapuntal engineering, and to my mind, the best nationalistic-romantic symphony every written by an American. Here Ives was doing what Dvorak suggested that Americans do --- apply indigenous materials to a large-scale Germanic format. (He did not, however, use African American or native American music, as Dvorak suggested, because they were not fundamental  to his own experience. Rather, he used the tunes he grew up with. Nationalism in this Dvorakian sense was actually foreign to Ives. To base a symphony on an arbitrary selection of local, indigenous materials was, to his mind, a form of manner, and ultimately phony.) But the music lacks depth. Ives doesn't scale the transcendental heights here that he did in his later work, and to do that, he had to move away from European models of form.

Great post Joe.  Thanks.

[Leo K.]

The newly realized 3rd Orchestral set is an emotional experience to listen to for the first time, and puts me at a place of rest and reflection, as this impressionistic work opens the memory and imagination, and the daydreams start to flash on things remembered and wished for hopes.

In the liners Jan Swafford writes that "The Third Orchestral Set may stand as the most profound discovery of the many and ongoing efforts to reconstruct uncompleted Ives works," and I would have to agree wholeheartedly.  James Sinclair and the Malmo Symphony are successful in executing these difficult, meandering scores, and bringing interest in the instrumental details heard everywhere within the sound picture.  In this 3rd Orchestral set there are rare moments of intensity in volume, and the mood remains meditative and quiet in each piece, with the second movement slightly more agitated in character.

I like the fact that Ives, Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern called their orchestral suites "sets" or "Pieces for orchestra" rather than stick the "symphony" label on these pieces.  Sorry to generalize somewhat, but around the beginning of the 20th century, the "finale problem" didn't seem to be an issue.  By labeling these works as "sets" one was free to make interesting pieces for orchestra without an apparent direction...of course I can't speak for the composers here, but in the orchestral pieces by the composers named above, I don't usually sense a "movement" towards a traditional ending, or culmination, at least in the case of Ives, who appears more concerned with a soundscape than narrative, paradoxical as this may seem when one reads the narrative titles of many of these pieces for orchestra.  The dropping of the finale creates other interesting structural possibilities for a subtler approach, or an ambiguity that could be created for the sake of varied expression, such as heard in Ives' orchestral sets as heard here.

[Joe Barron]

Very thoughtful post, though I must confess I don't care for the recording of the Third Orchestral Set. (My review appears at Amazon.) I find the piece rather diffuse, without the concentration and the drive that make the Second Orchestral Set co compelling. I've been told that every note in the last section is Ives's, and that may be the problem. He never finished the work, and we don't know how many more layers of layers he might have added. The piece as it stands seems thin.  Since it is not really Ives, to my ears, I have to wonder just what people who say they like this piece see in Ives to begin with. Maybe I like his other work for the wrong reasons.

It's time to stop picking Ives's bones in hope of finding one more reconstruction. 

[Leo K.]

Very thoughtful post, though I must confess I don't care for the recording of the Third Orchestral Set. (My review appears at Amazon.) I find the piece rather diffuse, without the concentration and the drive that make the Second Orchestral Set co compelling. I've been told that every note in the last section is Ives's, and that may be the problem. He never finished the work, and we don't know how many more layers of layers he might have added. The piece as it stands seems thin.  Since it is not really Ives, to my ears, I have to wonder just what people who say they like this piece see in Ives to begin with. Maybe I like his other work for the wrong reasons.

It's time to stop picking Ives's bones in hope of finding one more reconstruction.

Thanks for your comments, and I understand your criticisms, and your thoughts have made me wonder what I listen for in Ives' music...

Usually I am led to his impressionism, sense of mysterious dissonance and sense of aching nostalgia of which I strongly identify with day by day...and generally his slower movements (of his mature work such as the Emerson movement, or 1st and last movements of his 4th, and totality of the Holidays Symphony) are his most impressive achievements for my taste...and his mature work has a certain kind of slow or moderate pacing that lets his ideas grow organically as if one was in deep meditation or thought.

I also appreciate and love the variety of his ideas in sound textures involving his songs, which allow a huge variety of expression like a kind of personal journey on the earth not taken for granted.  There is a sense of humour too, as if he is not so concerned with originality or serious purpose or having a personal style, since he covers so much territory in his songs and seems to be having fun at it too.

Also, over the last few years I have found a tendency to be led to his youthful works, such as the 1st and 2nd Symphonies and 1st String Quartet, of which I'm turning to more when I want to hear his music.  Here we have more conventional forms, and perhaps because of my love for late romanticism his works in this form really click for me, and plus, there is still a sense of freedom and "devil may care" abandon in those works I mention.

I am sure there are no wrong reasons, but I would be interested to know what you search for in Ives...I will look for your review on Amazon as that may explain what you look for.

It is definitely not an easy thing to put into words!

[Scarpia]

I have had this one in my collection for some time but just listened to it day.



So far have listened to the Mennin and Ives Three Places in New England.  I found the Ives interesting.  The bit with two marching  bands superimposed didn't really fascinate me, but the spectral first movement and atmospheric third movement were beautifully done.  I need to listen to more Ives, which means - except for the other Ives piece on this disc - I have to buy more Ives.  I think I will go with the Dohnanyi/Cleveland.

[Spotswood]

I have to buy more Ives.  I think I will go with the Dohnanyi/Cleveland.

I'd recommend Tilson Thomas.

[Guido]

me too.

[snyprrr]

Remind me to mention this microtonal recording of the SQ No.2. I was comparing to the Walden, on YouTube, and, the way these new folks play it (Pythagorean stuff), the dissonences seem to just melt away. However, my suspicions that microtonal music just sounds 'depressing' were not taken away by this recording. Bizarre!

Maybe we need to find that microtonal thread, cause I've got some venting to do.

[Guido]

Remind me to mention this microtonal recording of the SQ No.2. I was comparing to the Walden, on YouTube, and, the way these new folks play it (Pythagorean stuff), the dissonences seem to just melt away. However, my suspicions that microtonal music just sounds 'depressing' were not taken away by this recording. Bizarre!

Maybe we need to find that microtonal thread, cause I've got some venting to do.

The String Quartet doesn't contain microtones...

[The new erato]

The String Quartet doesn't contain microtones...

Depends on the players.

[snyprrr]

The String Quartet doesn't contain microtones...

Is not this piece written strangely, with a lot of double flats and sharps? I think what this performance aims to do (I don't have it in front of me), or, what the guy here discovered, is that, if you play the doubles as micro-intervals instead of complete semi-tones, you get what we have in this performance. Pythagorean-something-or-other,... yeilding 19 (?) tones to the scale. Does that make sense?

Either way, there is a definite difference aurally. The sharp edges of the Walden 1949 performance gives way to the more muddy (yet clear) textures of the Flux Quartet performance.

Can anyone else comment?

[Dax]

It's this recording in which extended Pythagorean tuning is used.

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/pitchrecs3

[listener]

Is not this piece written strangely, with a lot of double flats and sharps? I think what this performance aims to do (I don't have it in front of me), or, what the guy here discovered, is that, if you play the doubles as micro-intervals instead of complete semi-tones, you get what we have in this performance. Pythagorean-something-or-other,... yeilding 19 (?) tones to the scale. Does that make sense?
Either way, there is a definite difference aurally. The sharp edges of the Walden 1949 performance gives way to the more muddy (yet clear) textures of the Flux Quartet performance.

Can anyone else comment?

Not a single double flat or double sharp in the 26 pages.   Here's a scan  of a couple of the busier pages

[snyprrr]

Not a single double flat or double sharp in the 26 pages.   Here's a scan  of a couple of the busier pages

I finally got the notes here:

"While Ives'(s?) music can be very dissonant in equal temperament, it was discovered by Johnny Reinhard that there was a different intent by the composer, ideally, in producing the intonation. This performance by the Flux Quartet makes use of extended Pythagean tuning, giving 21 specific notes. The intonation change dramatically increases the powerful impact the music has on a listener and we are pleased to present the first such recording for commercial release."

So that's what they're doing, however it is they do do.

I got the Emerson from the library and will do an intensive compare, and get back.

[Guido]

So far have listened to the Mennin and Ives Three Places in New England.  I found the Ives interesting.  The bit with two marching  bands superimposed didn't really fascinate me, but the spectral first movement and atmospheric third movement were beautifully done. 

Although Ives technical and musical innovations are remarkable, they are really not at all the point of the music and too much shallow commentary focuses on this aspect. I'm glad you liked the first and third of the three places - they're just gorgeous and moving for me in a way that very very few other pieces are. In the second movement it's the affekt rather than the effect which is important - the exuberance, manicness and sheer life that he depicts here is quite overwhelming - one needs to remember that virtually all of Ives music is in some way programme music.

[snyprrr]

Besides the SQ, I finally got the Metzmacher 'Portrait of Charles Ives' on EMI.

WOW!! This is now one of my fav recordings. I can totally see where Zappa came from here. The notes talk about Ives beating out rhythms on the piano, and surely this music sounds like it was written by a percussionist. The one piece, mmm, 'Down the Pavements'??, that, that sounds like music I would compose.

What a revelation!

I know this is re=released with Marni Nixon songs, but I BELIEVE SOME OF THIS ALBUM IS MISSING.

Awesome! Instant Desert Island.

[Joe Barron]

It's this recording in which extended Pythagorean tuning is used.

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/pitchrecs3

I finally got this recording and discuss it on my blog, here.

[Franco]

I finally got this recording and discuss it on my blog, here.

Fascinating information, and a very nice blog entry - many thanks.

[Joe Barron]

A follow up to the Second Quartet thing on my blog.

Johnny Reinhard sent me an e-mail. He seems like a nice guy. Almost sorry I was so hard on him.

[Martin Lind]

I need some advice for Charles Ives. I have the 1st symphony, Robert Browning overture and 2nd orchestral set and unanswered question with Chicago Symphony orchestra with Morton Gould ( RCA) , 2nd and 3rd symphony Bernstein (Sony), 4th symphony Ozawa and three places Thomas (DG). Holidays symphony with Hausschild ( Berlin Classics). The celestial country with Cleobury ( Collins)

This was my collection so far but recently I bought the string quartetts from Naxos and the 2nd piano sonata also from Naxos. I was disappointed by the Blair quartett and I was not very enthusiastic about the piano sonata (  but this may change)

So what to buy next? Naxos has a lot recordings and they are less expensive but my last experiences were not very good. I know some works from LP times ( I can't hear them any longer) and I know there is still alot, for example the violin sonatas and the piano trio was great, but for example I have never listened to the songs, what I would like to do.

What are your recommendations?

Regards
Martin