Space

[Michel]

Who else is fascinated by it?

Having read the interesting Sunday Times supplement recently commemorating the last 50 years,  I have been thinking about it a lot and have come to the conclusion that we certainly need to find a way out of our solar system if we are to carry on mankind. Possibly even at the immediate expense of spending money on other things here on earth at the present time.

Yes, it is true that it is likely that the Sun will last for another 5 billion years or so, but everything else is quite unpredictable. Who knows what will happen to population growth, the risk of disease, the climate, or our own solar system and the asteriods in it in the near future.

I wish I could have been alive in a thousand years or so instead of today; we are at such early stages of advanced technological development and it excites my mind to think of what is next for our species, and frustrates me I cannot experience it.

Does anyone else feel the same?

[bwv 1080]

No, I do not think anything will come of interstellar travel.  If humans die out on earth I do not care one whit whether some select few survive somewhere else in the Universe.  The distances are simply too great and physics gives little indication that the limits imposed by relativity will ever be worked around.  There is no compelling reason to put humans in space - everything a person could accomplish can be done much cheaper, safer and more effectively by a unmanned probe.  If you think what was accomplished in the first 50 years of aircraft flight, the progress in space is a resounding disappointment - the technology to get something out of our atmosphere is basically unchanged since Sputnick and is so inherently risky and unstable that in no situation will humans ever regularly ride rockets into space.

[BachQ]

Considering only global warming, the earth will be a disaster zone in about 50-100 years.

We are living in the best of times right now.  In 50-100 years (if mankind is still around), you'll look back in disbelief as to how good things are now.

[bwv 1080]

Considering only global warming, the earth will be a disaster zone in about 50-100 years.

We are living in the best of times right now.  In 50-100 years (if mankind is still around), you'll look back in disbelief as to how good things are now.

C'mon -the warming climate will cause problems for sure, but not the end of civilization.  No one can predict the exact effects of climate change with any accuracy and the doomsday scenarios are just speculation.

[BachQ]

C'mon -the warming climate will cause problems for sure, but not the end of civilization.  .

Well, I said global warming will cause a "disaster zone" in 50-100 years ...... not the end of civilization.

The end of civilization will likely be caused by terrorism-related weapons of mass destruction.

[Michel]

No, I do not think anything will come of interstellar travel.  If humans die out on earth I do not care one whit whether some select few survive somewhere else in the Universe.  The distances are simply too great and physics gives little indication that the limits imposed by relativity will ever be worked around.  There is no compelling reason to put humans in space - everything a person could accomplish can be done much cheaper, safer and more effectively by a unmanned probe.  If you think what was accomplished in the first 50 years of aircraft flight, the progress in space is a resounding disappointment - the technology to get something out of our atmosphere is basically unchanged since Sputnick and is so inherently risky and unstable that in no situation will humans ever regularly ride rockets into space.

I think you are underestimating the possibility. We are exceptionally immature in our development thus far.

If you think we've exhausted all options in just fifty years, you're mad. Yes, the distances are great, but they were also across the great seas. And yes, of course the physics is difficult for space travel, which going across an ocean isn't (Such as how we can get anywhere near the speed of light too to make travel feasible?) But, as I say, we simply don't know enough yet either to confirm either way. But we have to try, else we won't know. Nothing is achieved without both effort and risk.

I am also not advocating putting people in space. As you say, its pointless. People need to go into Space once we have found out what we need through mathematical inquiry and unmanned probes, not least because what we want isn't even in our own solar system and would take hundreds of years to get to.

Your point about the speed of technological growth is more interesting, but it overlooks that a key reason for the swift development of the plane was war. And the whole space race was fueled by the Cold war. Now there is less of an impetus, but it should be no less intense, since we are now on a quest for mankind's survival. Yes, progress has still been slower but as you say, and I agree with you, the challenges are greater. But they can probably be overcome, after all, we as a race made little technological advancement in the first few thousand years of our current existence. We just need a paradigm shift of some kind.

Finally, I am not talking about a "select few" going elsewhere, I am talking about everyone.

[71 dB]

We are living in the best of times right now.  In 50-100 years (if mankind is still around), you'll look back in disbelief as to how good things are now.

Things are not so good at the moment. Too much competition. People work too much. Life has become a struggle to collect money instead of enjoying it. In 50 years from now I hope people have learned to take it easy.

70's and 80's was the best times so far.

[head-case]

The fact that the speed of light is finite and quite slow, and that infinite energy is required to reach the speed of light makes the notion of space travel beyond the solar system unrealistic.  Aside from this, the speed of light is so slow that anything we "see" isn't there anymore and can't be visited anyway.

I think you are underestimating the possibility. We are exceptionally immature in our development thus far.

If you think we've exhausted all options in just fifty years, you're mad. Yes, the distances are great, but they were also across the great seas. And yes, of course the physics is difficult for space travel, which going across an ocean isn't (Such as how we can get anywhere near the speed of light too to make travel feasible?) But, as I say, we simply don't know enough yet either to confirm either way. But we have to try, else we won't know. Nothing is achieved without both effort and risk.

I am also not advocating putting people in space. As you say, its pointless. People need to go into Space once we have found out what we need through mathematical inquiry and unmanned probes, not least because what we want isn't even in our own solar system and would take hundreds of years to get to.

Your point about the speed of technological growth is more interesting, but it overlooks that a key reason for the swift development of the plane was war. And the whole space race was fueled by the Cold war. Now there is less of an impetus, but it should be no less intense, since we are now on a quest for mankind's survival. Yes, progress has still been slower but as you say, and I agree with you, the challenges are greater. But they can probably be overcome, after all, we as a race made little technological advancement in the first few thousand years of our current existence. We just need a paradigm shift of some kind.

Finally, I am not talking about a "select few" going elsewhere, I am talking about everyone.

[sidoze]

i'm always amazed by opinions like head-case's and bwv's, no matter how clearly they state current facts. If there's one thing that's obvious to me it's that mankind has done very little, and knows even less. New ways, once thought impossible, or even not thought of at all, are always coming out, being discovered and made, and one day things that we struggle with now will become easy and standard practice, with all the doubting words merely buried as footnotes in history. It reminds me of Samuel Johnson's famous saying about a man being tired of London being tired of life. Well, the same could apply here to the naysayers, in my opinion.

[Lethevich]

If it wasn't for global warming and finite natural resources, I would have boundless optimism for infinite technological development leading to all kinds of potential space colonisation. But I do not believe that this will be achievable before we reach a point where advancement is impossible. There is some chance, but a pretty big chance that it won't, counter-balancing that...

[Catison]

But I do not believe that this will be achievable before we reach a point where advancement is impossible.

Advancement will always be possible.  To say otherwise is to completely underestimate humanity.  As a research engineer I would be stupid not to think this way, but I am honestly amazed everyday by new discoveries.

[Mozart]

Didn't Willy Wonka invent a machine that sends chocolate to people's tvs? Why don't we just use that to get to other parts of the universe?

[Dungeon Master]

Who says we have the right to colonise other planets? We have done a spectacularly bad job of looking after this one. Any impartial alien observer would liken human colonisation of Earth as a cancer of the planet. The destruction we have wreaked far outweighs the good we have acheived. And its just like us to think of bailing out and going elsewhere when we have fouled our own nest.

I say we do not have the right to go anywhere until we can demonstrate that we can look after our first planet.

[Bogey]

Didn't Willy Wonka invent a machine that sends chocolate to people's tvs? Why don't we just use that to get to other parts of the universe?

I believe you are referring to Wonka Vision. 

[m_gigena]

Who else is fascinated by it?

Having read the interesting Sunday Times supplement recently commemorating the last 50 years,  I have been thinking about it a lot and have come to the conclusion that we certainly need to find a way out of our solar system if we are to carry on mankind.

I had the impression the Space was a bit older.

Things are not so good at the moment. Too much competition. People work too much. Life has become a struggle to collect money instead of enjoying it. In 50 years from now I hope people have learned to take it easy.

Commentary: Worth $4 Million -- and Unable to Retire

[head-case]

i'm always amazed by opinions like head-case's and bwv's, no matter how clearly they state current facts. If there's one thing that's obvious to me it's that mankind has done very little, and knows even less. New ways, once thought impossible, or even not thought of at all, are always coming out, being discovered and made, and one day things that we struggle with now will become easy and standard practice, with all the doubting words merely buried as footnotes in history.

There are things that were thought impossible which were realized to be possible.  However, there are things which were thought possible which have continued to be thought impossible.  The more fundamental limitations, such as Einstein's theory of general relativity, tend to be in this category.

[Michel]

Who says we have the right to colonise other planets? We have done a spectacularly bad job of looking after this one. Any impartial alien observer would liken human colonisation of Earth as a cancer of the planet. The destruction we have wreaked far outweighs the good we have acheived. And its just like us to think of bailing out and going elsewhere when we have fouled our own nest.

I say we do not have the right to go anywhere until we can demonstrate that we can look after our first planet.

According to who or what?

If we were good, who would grant us the right and if we were bad, who would suggest taking it away?

[Catison]

Who says we have the right to colonise other planets? We have done a spectacularly bad job of looking after this one. Any impartial alien observer would liken human colonisation of Earth as a cancer of the planet. The destruction we have wreaked far outweighs the good we have achieved. And its just like us to think of bailing out and going elsewhere when we have fouled our own nest.

I say we do not have the right to go anywhere until we can demonstrate that we can look after our first planet.

Who's to say how good of a job we have done.  If you are of the opinion that man evolved its way from nature, then it would seem man himself is apart of nature.  And in that sense, we have formed the most natural Earth possible, because the Earth has produced creates capable of changing her landscape.

But think about what we've accomplished.  We've been able to capture Earth's resources.  We've shaped and molded landscapes to make them more efficient.  We've single-handedly increased our own lifespan through medicine and more efficient cultivation of crops.  Our consciousness has let us become God, remaking the Earth in our own image.  When we find we've made mistakes, we correct them, because ultimately the destruction of the Earth is the destruction of ourselves.

[71 dB]

Commentary: Worth $4 Million -- and Unable to Retire

I found that text amusing. "They must live in three- and four-bedroom homes and drive mid-priced four-door sedans and mini-vans." Well, I am lucky to have ONE bedroom at some phase of my life (I live in an one-room apartment and still struggling to pay the rent). I won't ever have a car (I don't even want to have). I am lucky if I can earn worth $1 million during my whole lifetime. So, I have hard time feeling pity for these "unable to retire" millionaires. "He must cut his standard of living." So what? At least he has something to cut, unlike most people on Earth.

[locrian]

I'd be happy with a flying car.