Bach: Mass in B minor

Started by Don Giovanni, April 18, 2007, 11:30:17 AM

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DarkAngel



I very recently ordered the Suzuki/BIS 10 CD boxset of sacred works (mass, passions, oratorios)

These seem to get very good reviews and Amazon sellers have it for close to $50, also I believe the BIS sound will be quite good. Will report in when box arrives.......... ;)

Marc

#81
Even at the moments when Suzuki isn't Top-Notch, in Bach's vocal works he's still a good purchase! Not always my favourite, but I do like listening to his performances.

About the Mass BWV 232: there are so many recordings, and of this one I only have a 'few'.
But I most certainly like Gardiner, and also Thomas Hengelbrock and Gustav Leonhardt (both Deutsche Harmonia Mundi, though the latter might be OOP in the US of A). Herreweghe's first one is also good, but in general I think he's better in the more epic works (passions, oratoria) and cantatas. Oh, and let's not forget the first recording by Harnoncourt .... like Herreweghe, his second attempt was more slick though less expressive.
Another serious English contender IMO is Harry Christopers (from Collins to Brilliant Classics to Coro :)). This one is now available at a nice price, combined with the Christmas Oratorio & Cantatas BWV 34, 50 and 147 (Coro COR16072).

If someone would like to try OVPP: check out Konrad Junghänel with his Cantus Cölln.
Although I personally prefer this work with, say, at least 3 voices per part.

DarkAngel

Marc
Do you like any of the large scale "old school" versions for variety like:
-Giulini
-Klemperer
-Jochum etc

Coopmv

Quote from: Marc on December 21, 2009, 04:23:47 PM
Another serious English contender IMO is Harry Christopers (from Collins to Brilliant Classics to Coro :)). This one is now available at a nice price, combined with the Christmas Oratorio & Cantatas BWV 34, 50 and 147 (Coro COR16072).

If someone would like to try OVPP: check out Konrad Junghänel with his Cantus Cölln.
Although I personally prefer this work with, say, at least 3 voices per part.

I have Mass in B by Herreweghe on the old Virgin Classic but will get his latest version soon.  The Coro set by Harry Christophers is a super-bargain but I am skeptical of any English ensembles/soloists except John Eliot Gardiner and his group to do Bach choral works right ...

ccar

#84
Hermann Scherchen recorded the B minor Mass twice - in 1950 and 1959.

In more than one sense I feel Scherchen's Bach interpretations like a unique (impossible?) synthesis: an almost HIP like but more "natural" sensibility to clarity and transparency, with less use (or abuse) of propelled contrasts and primary tone colors, combined with a very free choice of tempi and phrasing, but continuously focused on the emotional and spiritual sense of the words and music. 

But prepare yourselves. Right from the beginning you may be surprised (or shocked!) when  for instance you compare Leonhardt  and Scherchen in the first Kyrie eleison chorus: there you'll find 9:19 against  15:53  (1950) or 14:46 (1959). But don't expect this to be a rule. If you keep comparing the two readings, the more stretched approach from Scherchen in the first Chorus part contrasts immensely with faster tempi in other Chorus parts and in many of the arias or duettos. For some these "extreme" variations may not be in tune with the good cannons of performance. But for others they may reflect a talented insight into the expressive musical content of the Mass.


   

Marc

#85
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 21, 2009, 04:30:05 PM
Marc
Do you like any of the large scale "old school" versions for variety like:
-Giulini
-Klemperer
-Jochum etc
I only heard parts of Giulini, and it's just not my taste of Bach. The same goes f.i. for Karl Richter. Sure, they would bring more variety to my collection, but what's the point if I do not really like to listen to those 19th-century/romantic/sewing machine Bachanian attempts?
But the three names you've mentioned are very good musicians, no doubt. If I had to buy or borrow one to give it a try, I think I would go for Jochum, who did some serious Bach & baroque studying in his time, or maybe (not mentioned) Karl Münchinger.
Other non-HIP names who recorded this piece and might be satisfying (just guessing, though, dunno 'bout their recordings) are Michel Corboz, Helmuth Rilling .... or even Sir Georg Solti! Solti's got good singers like Anne Sofie Von Otter and Hans-Peter Blochwitz.

But again: I'm more a HIP-man, though sometimes I hate these kinds of parochialism. I did hear f.i. some parts of Günther Ramin mono recordings of Bach which were rather good, and also Fritz Werner is a name which should be remembered, IMO.

I once bought a cheap non-HIP set conducted by Peter Schreier, with (a.o.) Lucia Popp and Carolyn Watkinson, and it proved to be very good value for that money! ;) Carolyn Watkinson sings the most moving Agnus Dei that I've heard .... yet.

Coopmv

Quote from: Marc on December 21, 2009, 04:50:24 PM
I only heard parts of Giulini, and it's just not my taste of Bach. The same goes f.i. for Karl Richter. Sure, they would bring more variety to my collection, but what's the point if I do not really like to listen to those 19th-century/romantic/sewing machine Bachanian attempts?
But the three names you've mentioned are very good musicians, no doubt. If I had to buy or borrow one to give it a try, I think I would go for Jochum, who did some serious Bach & baroque studying in his time, or maybe (not mentioned) Karl Münchinger.
Other non-HIP names who recorded this piece and might be satisfying (just guessing, though, dunno 'bout their recordings) are Michel Corboz, Helmuth Rilling .... or even Sir Georg Solti! Solti's got good singers like Anne Sofie Von Otter and Hans-Peter Blochwitz.

But again: I'm more a HIP-man, though sometimes I hate these kinds of parochialism. I did hear f.i. some parts of Günther Ramin mono recordings of Bach which were rather good, and also Fritz Werner is a name which should be remembered, IMO.

I once bought a cheap non-HIP set conducted by Peter Schreier, with (a.o.) Lucia Popp and Carolyn Watkinson, and it proved to be very good value for that money! ;) Carolyn Watkinson sings the most moving Agnus Dei that I've heard .... yet.

Marc,  I agreed with most of your assessments.  Giulini should  not be a conductor to count on for Bach in general while Jochum should be.  Personally, I think Karl Richter is fine - he was the son of a Lutheran minister and as such should not be summarily written off.  Richter might also have more than one version of Mass in B.  I also like Munchinger, though I am not sure about the availability of his Mass in B (OOP?).  I also agreed with you that the Peter Schreier's version is worth listening to as is the version by Helmut Rilling and I have both versions.  I will soon have two versions of Mass in B by Herreweghe (I already have the older version on Virgin Classic), who could be controversial for some listeners.  The latest addition by La Petite Bande/Kuijken is too new for me to give a meaningful assessment.  Personally, I also like John Eliot Gardiner and have the version as well.  I also have 3 DVD's on Mass in B, one each by Richter and Blomstedt and the third one by Gewandhausorchester/Thomanerchor Leipzig/Biller.  Choral works by Bach are always much more difficult to recommend since one has to deal with the singing in additional to instruments playing.  A person should really experiment a bit before he can find that happy medium.

KevinP

Richter recorded the B-minor Mass three times, plus the one on DVD. The earliest, from 1961, is easily my favourite of my 80-some recordings. I wouldn't label him old school, though I wouldn't certainly t call him HIP either, but he was a precursor to the HIP movement, scaling back the forces considerably compared to those who came before him.

As is not unusual from Scherchen, his recordings--both of them-- of the Mass are uneven, but those moments that work are absolute magic. The Kyrie is stunningly beautiful at the slow tempo. (

If you want to try a pre- (or anyway non-) HIP recording but don't gravitate towards the ones already mention, Marriner's is very rewarding.


Marc

Karl Richter has indeed been very important for the 'development' of interpreting Bach's music. And he still has a lot of fans, which obviously means that his insights aren't tied to just one period of time.
So anyone who likes him: please carry on in doing so! :)
It's just that all the things I've heard of him (so far) never really worked for me, both as a conductor and keyboard player/organist.

With one exception though:
the 2nd Brandenburg Concerto!

;D

rubio

Quote from: ccar on December 21, 2009, 04:49:44 PM
   

Which of these two versions would you recommend the most?
"One good thing about music, when it hits- you feel no pain" Bob Marley

rubio

Quote from: KevinP on December 21, 2009, 11:55:37 PM
Richter recorded the B-minor Mass three times, plus the one on DVD. The earliest, from 1961, is easily my favourite of my 80-some recordings.

Is this the 1961 recording?

"One good thing about music, when it hits- you feel no pain" Bob Marley

KevinP


ccar

#92


Quote from: rubio on December 22, 2009, 02:46:02 AM
Which of these two versions would you recommend the most?
How can I put it? First beware. Why do you go with this Scherchen fad if you can choose between so many carefully chiseled HIP interpretations, listen to the solos and duets by famous and more sophisticated singers, or turn to some of the other more respected "nonHIP" performances? And most of these are coming with opulent digital sound or new hi-tech masterings.
   
For me it's a bit like painting. You may prefer a landscape depicted by some faithful and beautiful reproduction of reality or you may look for an emotional imprint of the same landscape given by blurred contours, brush marks and hidden new colors or shades. In spite of many imperfections and some crude choices, some may also feel that Scherchen somehow is able to build a continuous dramatic and spiritual intensity which is only rarely to be experienced in so many "perfect" Bach performances.
                       
Even so, I should warn you again. Neither of the two Scherchen versions is proper for a perfectionist or purist listener. You won't find any state of the art sound and the tempi have the widest variations from part to part, particularly in the 1950 version. The solo singers may be quite expressive and moving but sometimes are ponderous or too infatuated. So if you look much into the solo singing parts you may prefer some individual singers from one or the other version. The chorus colors and textures may be more open in the first reading but more worked and polished in the second. And the solo instruments also seem to me more forward in the earlier recording.

If after all this warnings you are still willing to accept the risks, you may need some extra courage to go into the more rugged (but transparent) mono sound and the more rustic interpretation of the first Scherchen. Personally, I wouldn't pass this experience because in spite of lesser means, there is a sense of immediacy which moves me the most.




Antoine Marchand

Quote from: DarkAngel on December 21, 2009, 03:19:09 PM
Antoine
Can I assume since this offering is your top choice for Cds of 2009 you really like this............... :)

Is this your favorite Mass in B minor of all time, top 3, comments please......(don't keep any secrets from us)

Yes, DA, Kuijken is currently my top choice, together with Leonhardt. But it exists a lot of very enjoyable versions, for instance, just to mention some of them among my own discs: Veldhoven, Herreweghe 1 & 2, Suzuki, Junghanel, Fasolis, Gardiner.

I prefer Leonhardt and Kuijken because they always convey that feeling of Lutheran sobriety -certain kind of reverence almost phisically tangible- that I search in Bach sacred works (even in this work sometimes called "the Catholic Mass"). BTW, I would like to have the Rifkin's version of this mass, but it is totally OOP.  :)         

Coopmv

DA,  You can't go wrong if you get 15 versions of Mass in B between CD's and DVD's like I did ...     ;)

DarkAngel

Quote from: Coopmv on December 22, 2009, 06:00:05 PM
DA,  You can't go wrong if you get 15 versions of Mass in B between CD's and DVD's like I did ...     ;)

Indeed that would solve one problem......yet create another by very quickly draining my finances
(compare to the incremental draining I have been practicing lately)

Coopmv

Quote from: DarkAngel on December 22, 2009, 06:26:16 PM
Indeed that would solve one problem......yet create another by very quickly draining my finances
(compare to the incremental draining I have been practicing lately)

DA,  The challenge for getting to a definitive version of any choral works is two folds - the orchestral playing and the soloists/choir performance.  The truth is you will always find something that does not agree with you 100%.  While listening is no doubt quite subjective, it is an even bigger problem when you have two forces tugging at you - voice and instruments.  You may want to sample the music on Amazon and make better use of your local library before you settle on a half-dozen of mass in B.  IMO, it is total bunk to think Mass in B is done right ONLY when it is HIP.  Personally, I found Karl Richter was in fact (semi) HIP when I watched his Brandenburg Concertos on DVD.  While the intruments were modern instruments, he scaled the size of his ensemble according to the concerto the group was performing.  Unlike Karajan, who used the force strength of the BPO in his recordings ...

DarkAngel

#97
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 22, 2009, 05:53:25 PM
Yes, DA, Kuijken is currently my top choice, together with Leonhardt. But it exists a lot of very enjoyable versions, for instance, just to mention some of them among my own discs: Veldhoven, Herreweghe 1 & 2, Suzuki, Junghanel, Fasolis, Gardiner.

The samples for Kuijken sound good, food for my plate

Coop
Not a problem, I will have my modern orchestra basses covered  with Richter/Archiv and Klemperer/EMI GROTC
So I will not be completely distracted by the HIP versions


rubio

Quote from: ccar on December 22, 2009, 01:48:56 PM
If after all this warnings you are still willing to accept the risks, you may need some extra courage to go into the more rugged (but transparent) mono sound and the more rustic interpretation of the first Scherchen. Personally, I wouldn't pass this experience because in spite of lesser means, there is a sense of immediacy which moves me the most.

Thank you very much for the detailed and interesting comments, ccar! I will keep them in mind and I will probably pick up one of them up as an alternative version if I find it for a fair price. I have no problems with transparent mono sound, and I very much enjoy Scherchen's art in other areas.
"One good thing about music, when it hits- you feel no pain" Bob Marley

Antoine Marchand

Quote from: DarkAngel on December 22, 2009, 06:43:41 PM
The samples for Kuijken sound good, food for my plate

Go for Kuijken, DA! And, if it is possible, Leonhardt too.

Just one unnecessary prevention: it exists a recording by Kuijken on Urtext Records; it only contains excerpts and it is not recommendable. The good one is on Challenge Classics. :)