Bach: Mass in B minor

Started by Don Giovanni, April 18, 2007, 11:30:17 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

jlaurson

Quote from: jlaurson on January 03, 2010, 06:31:08 AM
If you're interested, here's an interview with Minkowski and how he came to Bach:
"I'm American, You know" – Interview with Marc Minkowski, Part 1
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=574


I still prefer van Veldhoven, I don't yet know Kuijken II, but Minkowski blew me away immediately and is among my favorite versions. I like what DarkAngel had to say about the polyphonic strengths of his 10-singer group. By the way: How do you, DarkAngel, account for 107 minutes for Minkowski? Somehow it only adds up to 101 for me.


J.S. Bach, Mass in B-minor, Minkowski / LMdL
naïve 5145 (101:05)


Quote from: DarkAngel on January 03, 2010, 06:59:19 AM
Since there is no total timing given in Minkowski booklet I took total times from CD player readout for both CDs and added them together........ 53:24 + 53:40

My copy does indicate a total timing... namely 1hour, 41 minutes. (Back-cover, lowest line, really fine print. My version is the "book-style" copy from last January.) For the timing I gave above, I faintly remember  counting the individual, official movement times and adding them up. Don't know where the discrepancy to your timing comes in, unless the official timing does not count "empty" space on tracks, while iTunes of course would count that.

DarkAngel

Quote from: jlaurson on January 03, 2010, 07:09:37 AM
My copy does indicate a total timing... namely 1hour, 41 minutes. (Back-cover, lowest line, really fine print. My version is the "book-style" copy from last January.) For the timing I gave above, I faintly remember  counting the individual, official movement times and adding them up. Don't know where the discrepancy to your timing comes in, unless the official timing does not count "empty" space on tracks, while iTunes of course would count that.

OK I see that now in very small print on back of digibook: 1H41
Not sure how they arrive at that time compared to actual total times from CD player readout which total just over 107 minutes (1H47).......

The Kuijken total times in booklet are 50:35 + 51:27, but the CD player readouts are 50:33 + 51:25
So mysteriously I lost a few seconds of Kuijken......... :)

jlaurson

Quote from: DarkAngel on January 03, 2010, 07:29:55 AM
OK I see that now in very small print on back of digibook: 1H41
Not sure how they arrive at that time compared to actual total times from CD player readout which total just over 107 minutes (1H47)

If it were a live recording, I'd say that its' the applause. As it is,

Disc 2: 53:34 total timing. Avg. 5 seconds reverb after each track, 13 tracks... still that's only one minute and the reverb times are *not* unusually long.
Same on disc 1: 53:20, Avg.5 seconds after each track (lack of any pause between some made up by the last), 12 tracks, another minute. 106 minutes.

If it were an LP, I'd check my belt... but since these are just 1s and 0s, they must have made an error with 101 minutes. Which explains why in my review I was so surprised about how fast the recording was supposed to be, when it sounded radically un-slow in a few select places. (I really felt like a dumb-ass for a while, because I asked Minkowski about the slowness only to go home and read it was the fasted B-minor ever, alongside Junghaenel's.  ;D


jwinter

I know I'm an un-HIP heathen, but the ones I usually come back to are --

 

The Blomstedt DVD is beautifully recorded in Bach's church, and has a great interview with Blomstedt on the mass.
The man that hath no music in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils.
The motions of his spirit are dull as night,
And his affections dark as Erebus.
Let no such man be trusted.

-- William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

Coopmv

Quote from: jwinter on January 03, 2010, 03:54:43 PM
I know I'm an un-HIP heathen, but the ones I usually come back to are --

 

The Blomstedt DVD is beautifully recorded in Bach's church, and has a great interview with Blomstedt on the mass.

I have all the grounds covered.  I have the Blomstedt's DVD and the HvK's CD but not the Jochum's CD.  I have versions by most of the leading HIP conductors of this work as well.  I am not religious about HIP and in fact like Karl Richter for most of his Bach choral work recordings ...

KevinP

I gave Maazel a spin today and man, I forgot how good his reading was. This is upper echelon stuff. 

KevinP

#146
Quote from: Leo K on January 03, 2010, 05:42:16 AMSince I have an SACD player I am definitely interested in the Kuijken account.

BTW, how many recordings of the Mass are on SACD?

I have these:

  • Kuijken
  • Netherlands Bach Society
  • Junghanel
  • Muller-Bruhl (2nd Naxos)
  • Suzuki
  • Rilling (2005)


Any others?

czgirb

Quote from: Bulldog on August 02, 2009, 10:27:43 AM
Yes, the Leonhardt B Minor Mass is my favorite on record.

To me:
SMP: Karl Richter (1959), Herreweghe (1984), and Gardiner
XO: Gardiner
MiB: Leonhardt ... same as you
SJP: Karl Richter ... what yours?

Bulldog

Quote from: czgirb on January 19, 2011, 11:26:21 PM
To me:
SMP: Karl Richter (1959), Herreweghe (1984), and Gardiner
XO: Gardiner
MiB: Leonhardt ... same as you
SJP: Karl Richter ... what yours?

Gardiner on Archiv.

FideLeo

#149
With the new excellently recorded OVPP performance by John Butt and his scottish Dunedin Consort and Players, one hears the music with an unprecedented clarity of texture and colours, not to mention the energetic and stylish communication in the singing and playing (Try the corno da caccia solo in the example, the trio of clarini also brilliant).  Again voice types and features will always be subject to listener's own background, tastes and preferences, but there is no denying that John Butt holds his status as a first-class Bach scholar and musician well with this recent presentation.

excerpts: 'Quoniam' - 'Cum sanctos spiritus' from Gloria

http://www.youtube.com/v/yz1WHzjXBMw




Quote from: KevinP on January 05, 2010, 11:45:25 PM
BTW, how many recordings of the Mass are on SACD?

I have these:

  • Kuijken
  • Netherlands Bach Society
  • Junghanel
  • Muller-Bruhl (2nd Naxos)
  • Suzuki
  • Rilling (2005)


Any others?

Yes this one, too, is on SACD, and deservedly.
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

knight66

I have almost bought that Dunedin version several times and what has stopped me has been the very luke warm comments on the soloists. What do you think of them?

The versions I have are:

Enescu: 1951 A 'specialist' version that I would not generally recommend
Karajan:1952, swift and well sung, a lasting pleasure
Richter: 1962 Stader/Topper. I enjoy this a lot.
Karajan: 1974 Po-faced and turgid, only worthwile for the soloists, Janowitz amongst them.
Marriner: 1977 Sound, but no individual take on it. Good soloists including Baker.
Rifkin: 1982 Groundbreaking one to a part, terrific in ensemble, bland solo work.
Parrott: 1984 Fizzing with life and wonderfully tangy.

In 25 years a version must have been produced using HIP and with characterful soloists and at least not an eccentric take on it.

I am still wary having bought last November the Harnoncourt Christmas Oratorio and enjoying it all apart from the mauling the conductor gives the piece.

Mike
 
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

FideLeo

#151
Quote from: knight on January 23, 2011, 01:34:12 AM
I have almost bought that Dunedin version several times and what has stopped me has been the very luke warm comments on the soloists. What do you think of them?

The soloists are not eccentric at all, but neither do they have a glamourous voice (as many of them do in Minkowski's recording). The women especially sound like boy sopranos/altos, and that actually works well in the 'choral' parts.  The arias, though, will be an acquired taste if one has not taken to Emma Kirkby's style comfortably.  Speaking for myself, I like the Butt/Dunedin recording most for its crystal clear presentation of the music; it's a bit like Parrott's, but with more definition, rigour and colour. i.e. you can find better singing elsewhere but the conductor's overall very coherent concept and his rather precise way of putting it altogether with his technically assured musicians are hard to fault.  (Using the scale of your list, I'd say this one is in the lineage of Rifkin/Parrott, with serious upgrades in overall finish and precision.) 
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

knight66

Thanks for that. I get the impression that the Dunedin will be somewhere between Rifkin and Parrott...which is not to infer it is middle of the road. Both of those have very good choral elements. I do want someone who balances that quality with really excellent soloists.

In the Minkowski....do the singers, drawn from the chorus of 10, really get to the heart of the arias and does he allow contemplative elbow room?

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

FideLeo

#153
Quote from: knight on January 23, 2011, 01:58:09 AM
In the Minkowski....do the singers, drawn from the chorus of 10, really get to the heart of the arias and does he allow contemplative elbow room?

Mike

I only have one example of that handy at the moment; try this and see what you think.  Minkowski's 'soloists' (all of them get an aria or a duet) are similar in their approach to the emotive content of the music.

Terry Wey sings 'Qui sedes' in Gloria:

http://www.youtube.com/v/VBFpzY4TYvo
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

knight66

Again, thanks. A very sane tempo that allows for that dancing lilt to come through sounding neither becalmed nor rushed. I have been through Youtube and like what I have found. I will order the set.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

FideLeo

Quote from: knight on January 23, 2011, 02:14:59 AM
Again, thanks. A very sane tempo that allows for that dancing lilt to come through sounding neither becalmed nor rushed. I have been through Youtube and like what I have found. I will order the set.

Mike

You are welcome; Minkowski's is a lovely set.  It could have been a bit better recorded (soundstage and overall transparency not really top notch) but for me the interpretation/performance itself holds up beautifully after several listenings over time.
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

jlaurson

Quote from: knight on January 23, 2011, 01:58:09 AM
Thanks for that. I get the impression that the Dunedin will be somewhere between Rifkin and Parrott...which is not to infer it is middle of the road. Both of those have very good choral elements. I do want someone who balances that quality with really excellent soloists.

In the Minkowski....do the singers, drawn from the chorus of 10, really get to the heart of the arias and does he allow contemplative elbow room?

Mike

I'd agree with Masolino that Minkowski & his singers really involve themselves. (See above review)
The singers may not be to everyone's taste (they suit me just fine, though), but there are no obvious or objective flaws. That's one difference from Butt/Dunedin's B-minor which has such problems and doesn't achieve lift-off elsewhere, either. (Note that that criticism applies only to that recording; their M-Passion is terrific and not marred by such problems). [Note to self: when googling my review of the latter, never use the words "Butt Passion" again with the safe-search off.] Two Saint Matthew Passions (John Butt)

Coopmv

Quote from: masolino on January 23, 2011, 12:44:27 AM
With the new excellently recorded OVPP performance by John Butt and his scottish Dunedin Consort and Players, one hears the music with an unprecedented clarity of texture and colours, not to mention the energetic and stylish communication in the singing and playing (Try the corno da caccia solo in the example, the trio of clarini also brilliant).  Again voice types and features will always be subject to listener's own background, tastes and preferences, but there is no denying that John Butt holds his status as a first-class Bach scholar and musician well with this recent presentation.

excerpts: 'Quoniam' - 'Cum sanctos spiritus' from Gloria

http://www.youtube.com/v/yz1WHzjXBMw




Yes this one, too, is on SACD, and deservedly.

I still have not had the chance to play the SACD set by John Butt and his scottish Dunedin Consort, which arrived just before Christmas from Presto Classical and before all the recent massive mail delay ...

knight66

How can it be that be reading about music that my mouth can water....I understand the connection when I read or hear about food. Anyway, now my mouth waters when I anticipate the package.

One of the links I watched included about 30 seconds of the Sanctus in full flow. It was thrilling to watch such a small body of singers attacking this with such wonderful tone and it did not sound in the least underpowered.

I have the McCreech one to a line St Matthew and will never part with it. If the approach is right and includes first rate musicians, there is nothing more concentrated, nor textures that are clearer. The massed bands, which I still enjoy, are just not needed to put across the glory of the music.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Leo K.



It's the time of year when I like to hear Bach's B Minor Mass, and I'm really enjoying what I'm hearing so far in this account.

My favorite is the Minkowski account, but I'm VERY impressed with the Dunedin Consort.

8)