Brahms' Third Symphony

Started by Mark, October 16, 2007, 01:32:36 PM

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Drasko

Quote from: ccar on September 30, 2009, 06:19:35 PM



But the live Brahms 3rd from Monteux-Concertgebouw (30 Oct 1960) in this Tahra set is a must.
Unfortunately, it's now very difficult to get.

Carlos

Thanks for the tip, I'll keep my eyes open for it.

My slow trawl through Brahms' 3rds came to a stall lately, but I just got the Mravinsky recently so that'll be next stop. Current favorites are Koussevitzky, live Pretre and perhaps bit unexpectedly James Levine (VPO, DG). 

Renfield

Quote from: Drasko on October 01, 2009, 06:00:10 AM
Thanks for the tip, I'll keep my eyes open for it.

My slow trawl through Brahms' 3rds came to a stall lately, but I just got the Mravinsky recently so that'll be next stop. Current favorites are Koussevitzky, live Pretre and perhaps bit unexpectedly James Levine (VPO, DG)

Now that's interesting. And I found a new copy on Amazon.com (marketplace) for the equivalent of £10 with shipping, so it's on the way. :D

Harry

Just ordered this one, should be interesting.

Dana

Quote from: Drasko on October 01, 2009, 06:00:10 AMMy slow trawl through Brahms' 3rds came to a stall lately, but I just got the Mravinsky recently so that'll be next stop.

Please report!

ccar

#44
Quote from: Drasko on June 14, 2009, 04:08:07 AM
So far on the wishlist:
Clemens Krauss/VPO ('30 Preiser) heard excerpt on radio, liked it a lot
Bruno Walter/VPO ('36 Opus Kura)
Arturo Toscanini/NBC one of the live ones, not sure which yet but leaning towards '46 on M&A
Klemperer/VSO ('56 Orfeo)
Carlo Maria Giulini/Philharmonia ('62? EMI) unfortunately only from Japan
Sergiu Celibidache/Stuttgart (70s DG) currently cheap on German Eloquence

For Keilberth, Ansermet and Monteux I'll try to find more input.  

Some personal impressions about some other of your (interesting) list options:

Krauss –  for me some sort of an intimate elegant reading of the Brahms 3, with  a sense of linear thread across the work ; the smoothness of the VPO (in 1930 !) is there but sometimes you may feel the need of more drama or roughness.
Keilberth  (Bamberg 1963) - enjoyed his reading  very much; and his other Brahms symphonies recordings are also superb (Bamberg, Hamburg, Berlin,Tokyo)          
Toscanini – when choosing you may also look for the less well Known NBC  1942 (20 Dec broadcast)

And if we are looking for the less mentioned Brahms big league conductors, what about Abendroth and Knappertsbusch ?

Carlos

ccar

Quote from: Drasko on June 14, 2009, 04:08:07 AM
Excellent! Mitropoulos and Tennstedt crossed of the list.

I Know many of us (sharing the same nonlethal but incurable disease) probably won't have the time in life to relisten all our collected CDs over the years. And for some favorite composers, works or performing artists even the number of different versions in the shelves will be hard to confess. The only sense I may see in this is to discover and enjoy a piece of music in diverse enriching perspectives and to exercise our personal sensibility (and individual taste) for the art of musical expression.   
I am sorry for the justification but it helps me coming back to this topic and try to rescue one of my favourite conductors. Obviously we cannot have them all but I wouldn't "cross Mitropoulos of the list" .
AFAIK there are 4 Mitropoulos recordings of Brahms S3 - NY 1952, Florence 1953, NY 1958 and Salzburg 1958. This last one (Orfeo) is with the Concertgebouwn Orchestra and in a quite good vintage sound. The reading is a very poetic account, with wide tempo and dynamic changes but a unique feeling of orchestral singing and transparency. Personally I also enjoy the more energetic and dramatic approach I feel in NY and in the Maggio Fiorentino but the sound quality may deter some of the more digitally trained ears.

Carlos



       
   

Renfield

Quote from: ccar on October 04, 2009, 07:55:42 AM
I am sorry for the justification but it helps me coming back to this topic and try to rescue one of my favourite conductors. Obviously we cannot have them all but I wouldn't "cross Mitropoulos of the list" .

I believe he was referring to the specific recording, rather than the conductor's reading of the 3rd in general. Note the preceding conversation - speaking of which, I am surprised you would call the sound on the Orfeo 3rd 'quite good', especially for as late as 1958.

May I ask, however, on which label the two New York recordings are currently available? I would be delighted to hear a better overall reading from Mitropoulos in the 3rd, as, even beyond the sound, I found the Orfeo generally uncompetitive (as you can read above).

ccar

#47
Quote from: Renfield on October 04, 2009, 09:09:56 AM
I believe he was referring to the specific recording, rather than the conductor's reading of the 3rd in general. Note the preceding conversation - speaking of which, I am surprised you would call the sound on the Orfeo 3rd 'quite good', especially for as late as 1958.

May I ask, however, on which label the two New York recordings are currently available? I would be delighted to hear a better overall reading from Mitropoulos in the 3rd, as, even beyond the sound, I found the Orfeo generally uncompetitive (as you can read above).

Yes, I understand we are all just referring to the specific Brahms S3 in this topic.
And I am sorry if we disagree but considering the Orfeo 1958 is a live mono broadcast recording (taken from the Austrian Radio archives) it sounds quite good indeed. Much better than the same year (1958) NY Philharmonic recording I refer below. And it carries very well, at least for me, the beauty and interest of the performance. As I said previously, perharps I am always listening to too many versions of the same work. And surely I don't intend to put this (or any) recording in any kind of ranking  or "competition". But my point is I find it difficult to accept we should refuse to consider it because of the sound, as I really enjoyed listening to it. For those who want to try it, just look for the beautiful singing of the orchestra in the Poco Allegretto.

Others Mitropoulos Brahms S3 : New York 1952 (Urania); Maggio Fiorentino 1953 (Urania); New York 1958 (Asdisc or Arkadia). I believe only the last one is OOP and more difficult to find.

Carlos

Renfield

Quote from: ccar on October 04, 2009, 10:52:50 AM
And surely I don't intend to put this (or any) recording in any kind of ranking  or "competition". But my point is I find it difficult to accept we should refuse to consider it because of the sound, as I really enjoyed listening to it. For those who want to try it, just look for the beautiful singing of the orchestra in the Poco Allegretto.

'Uncompetitive' meaning 'unextraordinary' (NB the latter is not an English word, to my knowledge). As for the sound, speaking as someone who ranks among his favourite Beethoven 5ths the very first one, by Nikisch, sound is far from my sole deciding factor. But seeing as this is music we are listening to, thus by definition 'sound', I find the sonic particulars of a recording inseparable from the rest, if ignorable.

And I fully encourage anyone interested to, indeed, try any recording they want. Surely, however, given how we are not electing the Best Brahms 3rd, some leeway in what I (or you) recommend is a given? If you enjoy it, then good for you! :)

Drasko

Different people differently perceive and react to recorded sound ad sound quality. Rest is semantics.

For instance I can tolerate huge amount of extraneous noises and other approximations of historical recordings while can't stand typical Chandos modern recording finding it diffuse and undefined while most would call that same Chandos sound state of the art, but at the same time I like the sound of Christophe Rousset's Bach recordings on Ambroisie, which some consider wet and over reverberant. Or even funnier I thought of Valek's Supraphon Martinu cycle to be very dry and slightly recessed, while Daverz though of it to be muffled and thick, and BBC reviewer found it over reverberant, now it surely can't be all this at the same time but we all definitely heard it differently.

Que

Quote from: ccar on October 04, 2009, 04:50:46 AM
Some personal impressions about some other of your (interesting) list options:

Krauss –  for me some sort of an intimate elegant reading of the Brahms 3, with  a sense of linear thread across the work ; the smoothness of the VPO (in 1930 !) is there but sometimes you may feel the need of more drama or roughness.
Keilberth  (Bamberg 1963) - enjoyed his reading  very much; and his other Brahms symphonies recordings are also superb (Bamberg, Hamburg, Berlin,Tokyo)         
Toscanini – when choosing you may also look for the less well Known NBC  1942 (20 Dec broadcast)

And if we are looking for the less mentioned Brahms big league conductors, what about Abendroth and Knappertsbusch ?

Carlos

And what about Weingartner/LPO? Very nice, if you ask me.



Q

ccar

#51
Quote from: Que on October 04, 2009, 05:44:30 PM
And what about Weingartner/LPO? Very nice, if you ask me.
Q

Q

Very fine indeed. I remember having a very good impression when I listen to it almost 20 years ago now. But one of the interesting things in a forum like this is to get new ideas and to refresh your own view. I went to the shelves to try the Weingartner again, with the Brahms F major. My copy is the "old" EMI References set and I could not compare it with yours in terms of sound.

When relistening to Weingartner I was drawn in my mind to the Krauss S3 I heard today (to give it the previous comment) and also to a recent edition of a Fritz Busch Brahms 2nd I very much enjoy. Its the same flowing inner tension, like a strong current beneath an apparently calm sea. But not like a Furtwangler, nor a Toscanini. And miles away from Mengelberg or Mitropoulos. Thank you for helping me to recall.    

Carlos

   

Que

Quote from: ccar on October 04, 2009, 07:19:24 PM
My copy is the "old" EMI References set and I could not compare it with yours in terms of sound.
     

IMO the sound of the ASV Living Era issue is a marked improvement in comparison with the EMI, I mean maybe not the standard of Opus Kura or Biddulph but it can certainly stand up against Naxos or Andante. Transfers were done by David Lennick and Graham Newton.

Q

ccar

And what about the numerous versions of 2 other great Brahms conductors: Knappertsbush and Abendroth. Any comments ?

Abendroth - Leipzig 1949; Prague 1950; Czech 1951; Leipzig 1952; Berlin RSO 1956



Knappertsbusch - Berlin 1942; Berlin 1944; Berlin 1950; Vienna 1955; Dresden 1956; Vienna 1958; Stuttgart 1963.

 

Renfield

#54
Quote from: ccar on October 10, 2009, 04:02:53 PM


What a useful thread this is proving to be, toward alerting me to Brahms 3rds I do not own which are 'relevant to my interests'! First the Levine, now in my hands (with many thanks to Drasko - the performance is indeed unexpectedly special), and now this. :D

Edit: Which, to clarify, I just ordered from Amazon.com

Edit 2: Since, to further clarify, Knappertsbusch's Brahms 4th in Orfeo is very dear to me.

Drasko

#55

Live recording, Moscow, 27.01.1972
(incorrectly dated by Doremi as Leningrad, 30.11.1971)

An excellent third which doesn't fully work for me. Mravinsky is surprisingly relaxed in Brahms, if I'd say gentle nobody would believe me, so I won't. Not rhapsodic though, there is no singing out of phrase endings or indulgent tempos, but soloists are given ample time, nothing is rushed and there is very little of the drivenness usually associated with Mravinsky. Most astonishing is the huge dynamic range of orchestra and even more control of those dynamics by Mravinsky, from deafening tutti to pianissimo in a blink of an eye. Given that it is live, concert recording orchestra plays superb, no missed cues, no noticeable fluffs, tight ensemble. Recorded sound is surprisingly good, up close and clear with good dynamic range, not ideal clarity in the tutti but perfectly acceptable, audience audible but not too distracting. I think this is different recording than the one on Melodiya coupled with fourth (edit: it actually is the same recording).
Why it then doesn't fully work for me? It's the finale, up to there everything is perfectly fine (no exposition repeat in first, but I can live with that) and I'm still not completely sure what exactly bugs me there. I think it's two things: Mravinsky doesn't emphasize the cross rhythms as much as I would like, I like the finale to stutter amidst all the thrust and the Leningraders sound bit streamlined, second thing I don't like the way he keeps the horns far too much in check, it could be concert balance but I doubt.
Maybe someone else would have different opinion, so I've uploaded entire finale for anyone to hear:
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/24/2018019/mravlenbrahms3fin.mp3[/mp3]   

Renfield

#56
I'll re-listen to the whole performance sometime soon, Drasko, now that I've my external hard drive (finally) up again.

But I can at least confirm that this is the same as the Melodiya (the version I have, coupled with the 4th), unless a specific member of the Moscow audience had an uncanny tendency to cough in the finale on exactly the same place, and in exactly the same manner! ;)

Edit: Wrong city!

ccar

#57
Quote from: Renfield on October 12, 2009, 08:49:48 AM
But I can at least confirm that this is the same as the Melodiya (the version I have, coupled with the 4th), unless a specific member of the Leningrad audience had an uncanny tendency to cough in the finale on exactly the same place, and in exactly the same manner! ;)

In fact they are. I have 3 differently dated Mravinsky Brahms S3 versions (DOREMI 30 Nov 1971; MEMORIA 1965; BMG Moscow 1972) with the SAME recording - the correct date seems to be the BMG Melodiya - Moscow 27 Jan 1972. (Note that other symphonies in these editions are not all repeated).
 
But the other Mravinsky Brahms S3 I have (RUSSIAN DISC CD10905) is indeed a different recording (I could confirm this by comparative listening). The recording date of this other performance is 30 Nov 1971 (incorrectly claimed in the DOREMI). And there is also a rehearsal of this performance, probably recorded in the same day - we know this because Mravinsky tells the musicians during the rehearsal "we'll do it now formally, but at night it will be with INSPIRATION" !!

Drasko

Quote from: ccar on October 12, 2009, 12:42:06 PM
In fact they are. I have 3 differently dated Mravinsky Brahms S3 versions (DOREMI 30 Nov 1971; MEMORIA 1965; BMG Moscow 1972) with the SAME recording - the correct date seems to be the BMG Melodiya - Moscow 27 Jan 1972. (Note that other symphonies in these editions are not all repeated).
 

Thank you for the information, I'll edit my previous post accordingly. Kenzo Amoh's Mravinsky discography also confirms about Memoria release being misdated, but it has not been updated recently so it doesn't include Doremi set. I'm guessing Doremi dates should be correct for 1st and 4th (there's only one 1st and the 4th sounds like 70s recording). Would you know if the 2nd is dated correctly?

ccar

Quote from: Drasko on October 12, 2009, 01:39:04 PM
Would you know if the 2nd is dated correctly?

I had already compared my versions of the 3rd before and so my previous comment was quick and easy. But for the 2nd I need more time for a carefull listening. I will then post my "results". But maybe some other forum member already has an answer ?