Brahms' Third Symphony

[Renfield]

Bump!

So, has anyone came across any good recordings recently? I've heard good things about Janowski in Pittsburgh and there is quite a bunch of live ones on Orfeo - Klemperer, Keilberth, Mitropoulos, Ansermet. Or Monteux and Tennstedt on BBC. Any impressions?
Also is Furtwangler in Turin 1954 with BPO on Myto any good?

Levine in Vienna takes 7:06 but doesn't give impression of being particularly slow.

I need to get the Janowski at some point: his Pittsburgh 4th is outstanding, and his earlier 3rd is very good indeed. (Not to mention I've heard him do the piece live, and that was also very good, if a little sloppy.) Otherwise, I have the highlighted among the above.

Klemperer's is extremely intelligent, and better than the EMI I think - I haven't listened to that one for a long while. Mitropoulos' has really bad sound (relatively speaking), but is an interesting account, if more of a curio than anything else due to just how horribly constricted it sounds, and some scrappy playing. Tennstedt on BBC disappointed me, fairly bland.

I am certainly looking for opinions on Keilberth and Ansermet.

[Drasko]

Klemperer's is extremely intelligent, and better than the EMI I think - I haven't listened to that one for a long while. Mitropoulos' has really bad sound (relatively speaking), but is an interesting account, if more of a curio than anything else due to just how horribly constricted it sounds, and some scrappy playing. Tennstedt on BBC disappointed me, fairly bland.

Excellent! Mitropoulos and Tennstedt crossed of the list (and Torino Furtwangler, forgot I have his other '54 recording). Was planning Brahms 3 binge but there are too many interesting looking candidates, so it's gonna be slow but long one.

So far on the wishlist:
Clemens Krauss/VPO ('30 Preiser) heard excerpt on radio, liked it a lot
Bruno Walter/VPO ('36 Opus Kura)
Arturo Toscanini/NBC one of the live ones, not sure which yet but leaning towards '46 on M&A
Klemperer/VSO ('56 Orfeo)
Carlo Maria Giulini/Philharmonia ('62? EMI) unfortunately only from Japan
Sergiu Celibidache/Stuttgart (70s DG) currently cheap on German Eloquence

of the recent ones already mentioned Janowski and I'm very curious about Bychkov but it seems available only as a set. Bychkov flew under my radar for long time (Onegin excepted) till I was mightily impressed wit his Rachmaninov 2nd on Philips.

Kertesz, mentioned by Baron and his nut-case alter-egos, and especially Van Beinum seem toroughly out of print at the moment.

For Keilberth, Ansermet and Monteux I'll try to find more input. 

[Que]

Great thirds? Interesting question! I guess this thread might come in handy: Brahms Symphony Cycles.

As for the third, honorary mentions go to: Klemperer (EMI); Kempe (Testament); Walter/NYPO (Sony/UA) (havent heard that '36! ); and Reiner (RCA).

BTW is the Mitropoulos that Renfield was referring to the NYPO live '52?

Don't worry about Van Beinum's Brahms, I have that cycle (Philips Dutch Masters) and it is quite interesting but not echt Brahms.

Q

[Drasko]

Don't worry about Van Beinum's Brahms, I have that cycle (Philips Dutch Masters) and it is quite interesting but not echt Brahms.

But I want to worry! I have and like very much Van Beinum's 1st (stereo) and given that I don't really like the piece that much the reason for my liking might exactly be the non-echtness. It's swift, flowing, very elegant and beautiful, maybe not the most dramatic & profound and touch streamlined, but again, too much profundity can cause indigestion.

BTW is the Mitropoulos that Renfield was referring to the NYPO live '52?

No, I believe we were talking about Concertgebouw on Orfeo (don't know the date offhand). So, if there is decent sounding Mitropoulos 3rd do point me in its direction.

[Renfield]

Excellent! Mitropoulos and Tennstedt crossed of the list (and Torino Furtwangler, forgot I have his other '54 recording). Was planning Brahms 3 binge but there are too many interesting looking candidates, so it's gonna be slow but long one.

So far on the wishlist:
Clemens Krauss/VPO ('30 Preiser) heard excerpt on radio, liked it a lot
Bruno Walter/VPO ('36 Opus Kura)
Arturo Toscanini/NBC one of the live ones, not sure which yet but leaning towards '46 on M&A
Klemperer/VSO ('56 Orfeo)
Carlo Maria Giulini/Philharmonia ('62? EMI) unfortunately only from Japan
Sergiu Celibidache/Stuttgart (70s DG) currently cheap on German Eloquence

of the recent ones already mentioned Janowski and I'm very curious about Bychkov but it seems available only as a set. Bychkov flew under my radar for long time (Onegin excepted) till I was mightily impressed wit his Rachmaninov 2nd on Philips.

Kertesz, mentioned by Baron and his nut-case alter-egos, and especially Van Beinum seem toroughly out of print at the moment.

For Keilberth, Ansermet and Monteux I'll try to find more input. 

For once, my obsession with Brahms' 3rd symphony might be useful to someone else.

The 1936 Walter, which I have on Andante, is superb. Easily Walter's best, compared to either the NYPO or the Columbia version, I'd say it's one of the most musically satisfying performances of the work I own (at least in terms of what I want from the piece).

The 1946 Toscanini is excellent; the M&A sound is quite unforgiving. It's still probably his best, better than the studio NBC version, and not as noticeably 'different' as the live Philharmonia: it just 'breathes' more, without the protracted singing-ness of the latter.

The Stuttgart Celibidache is one of those rather cerebral readings of his, but cohesive and worth listening to - certainly less traditional than the Munich version, although whether that's a good thing depends on the listener. I consider it an effective reading.

Finally, Bychkov. Bychkov's cycle feels generally interesting, without being specifically impressive; at least as I'm inclined to see it. His third is like a more minimalist Celibidache, minus some of the more obvious quirks. A, but not A+ for me.


I didn't know Giulini did a Philharmonia 3rd, but I certainly hope it doesn't fall spectacularly apart at the finale like his Chicago 4th.

Edit: Yes, it's the Concertgebouw Mitropoulos 3rd I was referring to, as well. Colour me interested in the New York version, though!

[Drasko]

For once, my obsession with Brahms' 3rd symphony might be useful to someone else.

The 1946 Toscanini is excellent; the M&A sound is quite unforgiving. It's still probably his best, better than the studio NBC version, and not as noticeably 'different' as the live Philharmonia: it just 'breathes' more, without the protracted singing-ness of the latter.

Wasn't even considering studio NBC nor Philharmonia. The ones in the running are all live NBC - '38 on Guild, '41 on Naxos and that '46 on M&A.

The Stuttgart Celibidache is one of those rather cerebral readings of his, but cohesive and worth listening to - certainly less traditional than the Munich version, although whether that's a good thing depends on the listener.

To this listener Celibidache in Stuttgart is preferable to Munich almost by default. And since it's 5 euros I'll certainly pick it with my next German order.

I didn't know Giulini did a Philharmonia 3rd, but I certainly hope it doesn't fall spectacularly apart at the finale like his Chicago 4th.

No need to bother, just found that it's out of print even in Japan.

[Renfield]

Wasn't even considering studio NBC nor Philharmonia. The ones in the running are all live NBC - '38 on Guild, '41 on Naxos and that '46 on M&A.

Interesting. I even see a Tallis Fantasia there, in that Guild disc!

And I seem to not have written 'his best I've heard' as I thought I had - though it's really quite good, the 1946.

To this listener Celibidache in Stuttgart is preferable to Munich almost by default. And since it's 5 euros I'll certainly pick it with my next German order.

Really? I'd be inclined to generally agree about his Brahms, but is his Bruckner from Stuttgart also better?

I'm asking as I've considered the relevant DG set a few times, but never actually bought it. (Though this is off-topic.)

[Drasko]

Interesting. I even see a Tallis Fantasia there, in that Guild disc!

Guild disc has very good review from Hurwitz and is currently on sale at europadisc.
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=5354
http://www.europadisc.co.uk/classical/76650/Toscanini_conducts_the_NBC_Symphony_Orchestra.htm

Really? I'd be inclined to generally agree about his Brahms, but is his Bruckner from Stuttgart also better?
I'm asking as I've considered the relevant DG set a few times, but never actually bought it. (Though this is off-topic.)

I don't have his complete Stuttgart Bruckner, but those I do have (7-9), yes, I definitely prefer to their Munich counterparts. Stuttgart 7th was one of my favorite 7ths around (I'm saying was just because haven't listened to it in really long time).
In Stuttgart he was a great conductor, in Munich he was The Man with the Plan, and I'm not sure I buy the plan.

[eyeresist]

I picked up the Australian Eloquence release of the Ansermet cycle (inc. the requiem) last year. I don't recall his 3rd specifically, but have a general impression that the set was very average in every respect (I am an occasional admirer of Ansermet's, particularly in French music).

[Scarpia]

I need to get the Janowski at some point: his Pittsburgh 4th is outstanding, and his earlier 3rd is very good indeed. (Not to mention I've heard him do the piece live, and that was also very good, if a little sloppy.) Otherwise, I have the highlighted among the above.

Klemperer's is extremely intelligent, and better than the EMI I think - I haven't listened to that one for a long while. Mitropoulos' has really bad sound (relatively speaking), but is an interesting account, if more of a curio than anything else due to just how horribly constricted it sounds, and some scrappy playing. Tennstedt on BBC disappointed me, fairly bland.

I am certainly looking for opinions on Keilberth and Ansermet.

Janowski's Pittsburgh 2/3 is the very best of the series.  #1 and #4 are less outstanding, in my opinion.

The Ansermet makes an interesting comparison, interest is enhanced by the unique sonorities of a French Orchestra.  Not revelatory, but interesting. 

[Drasko]

This one can be passed by. Not particularly interesting in any aspect.



http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=3001

I actually don't agree with Mr.Carr Jr. on two basic premises of his review. The sound isn't really that bad as he describes it, usual early 60 broadcast mono and the tempos aren't predominantly slow at all (13:34, 7:54, 6:09, 9:06, exp.repeat taken in I), just feels so. Main problem in my opinion is drab playing of BBC Northern SO, especially the wind section lacking any verve and panache whatsoever, so whenever they have the lead their better safe than sorry approach drags performance into lethargy and stupor, losing any sense of flow. Monteux shares part of the blame for allowing them far to much elbow room. This mostly marres the first movement, performance picks up some life later but too late. I generally don't mind less than perfect playing, especially live, but this cautious and colorless playing is just not very interesting.

Haven't listened very closely but Schumann's 4th with BBC SO does sound like far more interesting affair.

[Drasko]

Johannes Brahms - Symphony No.3 in F, Op.90
Berliner Philharmoniker, live 27.04.1954 Titania-Palast, Berlin

Mighty fine inner movements. Wonderfully passionate Andante with some soaring string playing and Poco Allegretto exhibiting fine touch for swell and release. Outer movements, with their rhythmic trickiness don't really work into Furtwangler strengths. He tends to iron some corners and occasionally feels like watching overweight boxer: heavy on the punch but slow in retreat. Berliners play well and even the sound is quite good. The 3rd is definitely Brahms symphony that least suited Furtwangler, but I have to say I enjoyed it far more than expected. It is his least successful foray into Brahms but it didn't stroke me nearly as disastrous as is sometimes asserted in reviews.     

[ccar]

This one:




At 7:04 it's the slowest Poco Allegretto I'm aware of. Anyone have a slower one?

I was looking at this topic and found this question. It´s one of those (probably) useless details, but Jascha Horenstein, Baden-Baden 1958, is slower - Poco Allegretto - 7:21

[greg]

I like Brahms' 3rd Symphony. It makes me happy. 

[Dana]

      People say that there's no such thing as a bad performance of Brahms - no matter what tempo, what ensemble, conductor/soloists, it allways sounds good - but I find this symphony to be the exception. I thought that this symphony was as grand and wide as it was bland and bloated - until I heard Klemperer. Never going back.

[Herman]

      People say that there's no such thing as a bad performance of Brahms - no matter what tempo, what ensemble, conductor/soloists, it always sounds good

I wouldn't say that. The orchestral textures of those midcentury symphonies are quite tricky, as are the rhythmic intricacies. Same wih Schumann.

[DavidW]

      People say that there's no such thing as a bad performance of Brahms

I've never heard that said, and I agree with Herman it's quite difficult to pull off a well played Brahms symphony.  I've only heard that "no such thing as a bad performance" said about one single composer and that is Bach, and Bach is the only composer I can think of that has been played in every conceivable style, and his works transcribed from keyboard to organ to symphony orchestra to string quartet... yet he still remains Bach.  Can't say I've seen anything like that with Brahms or any other composer for that matter.

[Dana]

      Well, then I've said it Except for the 3rd Symphony, I've never heard a bad performance or recording of Brahms. That's not to say that Brahms is an easy composer to pull off - Brahms is tricky to pull off, and there's a big huge leap between a passable performance of Brahms and a truly fantastic one.
      Bach, on the other hand, now there's someone of whom I've heard countless uninspired, unimaginative, and uninformed performances. Now there's a composer who requires a sure-handed performer. What a perfect example of a composer where the written note doesn't come close to telling the whole story.

[Superhorn]

  I recently heard a really fine performance of this on an anthology of Chicago Symphony performances,live and recorded ,by Fredrick Stock, who led the orchestra from around 1905 to the early 40s.
  This is one of the most swift and urgent performances of the symphony I've ever heard, but it's not at all rushed or perfunctory . Stock certainly doesn't let the grass grow under him ! 
  This set also contains recordings by Kubelik, Rodzinski and the all but forgotten Belgian conductor Desire Defauw , including Kubelik in the Roussel 3rd, Hindemith Symphonoic Metamorphese by Hindemith and Pictures at an exhibition, Rodzinski's Mendelssohn Scottish,
Defauw in Franck's Chausseur Maudit and Prokofiev's Scythian suite etc.
  This was put out by the orchestra .

[ccar]

This one can be passed by. Not particularly interesting in any aspect.

But the live Brahms 3rd from Monteux-Concertgebouw (30 Oct 1960) in this Tahra set is a must.
Unfortunately, it's now very difficult to get.

Carlos