Brahms' Third Symphony

[Drasko]

There was an wonderful interpretation of the 3rd Symphony by Karl Böhm with the VPO. It was mono and old. I had it in LP but never found it on CD.

It was the most natural, fluent version I ever heard.

For the first time on CD. And fantastic performance it is! Not to be missed. Sound quality is very fine for the age (1953, mono)

[Renfield]

For the first time on CD. And fantastic performance it is! Not to be missed. Sound quality is very fine for the age (1953, mono)

So it is a different performance from the later one. Thanks!

[quark]

This is my first post here.
Reading the posts of this intriguing thread, I was surpised not see Dohnanyi's Cleveland version ever mentioned (if it was, I must have missed it). I don't have such an extensive knowledge of the discography to be able to compete with the Veteran members (and am especially ignorant, with historic recordings).
But Dohnanyi's solid and straightforward performance seems like a very worthwhile one.
One version that was indeed mentioned a few times is Wand's, to which my preferences go.
I completely agree with posts critical of Hurwitz's "John Wayne" style (although it was one of his reviews which lead me to Dohnanyi's version). 

[akiralx]

For the first time on CD. And fantastic performance it is! Not to be missed. Sound quality is very fine for the age (1953, mono)

I'll check this one out (here in Aus they are widely available in stores) - I would have assumed this was from Bohm's mid-70s VPO cycle (whose 2nd is my favourite for that work).

[Renfield]

This is my first post here.
Reading the posts of this intriguing thread, I was surpised not see Dohnanyi's Cleveland version ever mentioned (if it was, I must have missed it). I don't have such an extensive knowledge of the discography to be able to compete with the Veteran members (and am especially ignorant, with historic recordings).
But Dohnanyi's solid and straightforward performance seems like a very worthwhile one.
One version that was indeed mentioned a few times is Wand's, to which my preferences go.
I completely agree with posts critical of Hurwitz's "John Wayne" style (although it was one of his reviews which lead me to Dohnanyi's version).

(A bit late to notice, as usual...)


Hello quark! In all honesty, I have no idea why I haven't heard Dohnanyi's version yet. However, given the standard of his other symphonic recordings with the Cleveland Orchestra, I have no reason to think it isn't worthwhile.

Further, a live Dohnanyi cycle of the Brahms symphonies has recently been released in two installments by Signum Classics, the first installment of which (2nd/4th) I have heard, and liked enough to want to hear the other, at some point.

[early grey]

A Brahms cycle (which no-one has mentioned) by James Loughran and the Halle Orchestra together with other orchestral works is reviewed favourably here
   http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Dec02/Brahms_Loughran.htm
                       James Loughran was  principal conductor of The Hallé as of the 1971-1972 season, succeeding Sir John Barbirolli. He held the post until 1983, and was conductor laureate of The Hallé from 1983 to 1991. You can hear three perfomances of his with other orchestras on
        www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/tapes.php
as well as a Brahms Third symphony from Bruno Walter and the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra from 1936
here
         www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/transcriptions_07.php 
                                    which also contains Solomon with the Haydn Variations.

[Renfield]

A Brahms cycle (which no-one has mentioned) by James Loughran and the Halle Orchestra together with other orchestral works is reviewed favourably here
   http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Dec02/Brahms_Loughran.htm
                       James Loughran was  principal conductor of The Hallé as of the 1971-1972 season, succeeding Sir John Barbirolli. He held the post until 1983, and was conductor laureate of The Hallé from 1983 to 1991. You can hear three perfomances of his with other orchestras on
        www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/tapes.php
as well as a Brahms Third symphony from Bruno Walter and the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra from 1936
here
         www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/transcriptions_07.php 
                                    which also contains Solomon with the Haydn Variations.

It's a nice cycle, to be sure. My taste in Brahms is generally skewed towards the more Germanic approach, if you will, but Loughran imbues the music with a very pleasant 'lift'. It's smiling, genial, but unstodgy Brahms.

That Walter 3rd you mention, on the other hand, is in my shortlist for my favourite recording of the symphony. However, I mostly refrain from bringing it up on account of the sound being quite historical-listener-oriented.

As a performance, however, it has singular fire and emotional commitment. Vintage Walter.

Edit: You can find it in an Andante box dedicated to Brahms' symphonies, which is sadly OOP as far as I know.

[madaboutmahler]

My personal favourite recording of Brahms' 3rd symphony would probably be the excellent performance from the Vienna Philharmonic and James Levine on DG. This is a very engaging and expressive performance with the VPO on top form, with tempi that seem perfect from Levine. On amazon.co.uk I have published my full review.

[asin]B000001GLY[/asin]

My favourite after the Levine would be the recording Gardner made with the Orchestre Romantique et Révolutionnaire. What a wonderful, glowing sound they produce!

[asin]B002JIBCIU[/asin]

Daniel

[DavidW]

My personal favourite recording of Brahms' 3rd symphony would probably be the excellent performance from the Vienna Philharmonic and James Levine on DG. This is a very engaging and expressive performance with the VPO on top form, with tempi that seem perfect from Levine. On amazon.co.uk I have published my full review.

Same here Daniel, that is also my favorite.

[Renfield]

The DG Levine (thanks to Drasko, IIRC) is one of the best modern ones I've heard, too, if a tiny bit too unwieldy.

I'm looking forward to hearing his Chicago Brahms, on the strength of that recording.


As for the Gardiner, we discussed it a few pages back. Not my thing, at least presently. Maybe I'll put it on one day and appreciate it at last; certainly, I liked Gardiner's 1st, and the bits of his 4th I've heard (the only one I don't own).

[Clever Hans]

I think Bruno Walter / Columbia is reference.

Also like


Very similar to Walter


Highly Romantic.

Klemperer is not enough con brio, and too serious in general.
Haitink a good straightforward version with great orchestra.
Harnoncourt is a great quieter version, more chamber like.

[Renfield]

I think Bruno Walter / Columbia is reference.

Also like


Very similar to Walter

I know a lot of people venerate that Walter, and I liked it, but it's always sounded a little 'flabby' around the edges. The superlative earlier 1936 account (as discussed above) is by all accounts its 'tighter', more propulsive cousin.

However, the in-between New York version that - going by the trend in this thread - someone is bound to bring up, is probably not better than either; faster but less elegant than the Columbia, and not nearly as heartfelt as the Vienna.

All three of them rank very highly in my book, though.

And I must once again bemoan my lack of that Kertesz. One day!

Klemperer is not enough con brio, and too serious in general.
Haitink a good straightforward version with great orchestra.
Harnoncourt is a great quieter version, more chamber like.

Ha! Indeed. Although I find his style has merit, taken on its own terms.

And though I'm not very fond of the Haitink (too plain?), the epithet 'quieter' is spot-on for the (superb) Harnoncourt.

[Clever Hans]

I know a lot of people venerate that Walter, and I liked it, but it's always sounded a little 'flabby' around the edges. The superlative earlier 1936 account (as discussed above) is by all accounts its 'tighter', more propulsive cousin.

However, the in-between New York version that - going by the trend in this thread - someone is bound to bring up, is probably not better than either; faster but less elegant than the Columbia, and not nearly as heartfelt as the Vienna.

All three of them rank very highly in my book, though.

And I must once again bemoan my lack of that Kertesz. One day!

Yes the 1936 is interpretively maybe the best 3rd on record (although a lot of people cite the Cantelli) but the sound is obviously not good. Incidentally, Gramophone agreed with your assessment of the New York version versus the earlier account.
Kertesz held Walter as one of his conducting influences, and again the Gramophone warmly endorsed all of Kertesz' performances as being very natural and unaffected except the 1st, because it took too long to settle into a tempo in the allegro.

Apparently this symphony is very difficult to conduct and unfortunately many conductors don't seem to understand what con brio means, or poco allegretto, for that matter, and prefer to caramelize the whole thing.

While you bemoan your lack of the Kertesz, I'll bemoan my lack of the Monteux/LSO 2nd.

[Renfield]

Yes the 1936 is interpretively maybe the best 3rd on record (although a lot of people cite the Cantelli)

The Cantelli, ugh. It's not a recording that every really settled, with me. I like Toscanini more, from that angle.

On the other hand, the Mendelssohn 4th on the same disc (Testament release) is my favourite recording of the work!

Apparently this symphony is very difficult to conduct

It really is!

Part of what got me so fascinated with this symphony above and beyond the other three is that on the one hand, it's a shatteringly vulnerable, powerful work as written. On the other hand, so very few conductors and ensembles seem able to let it speak for itself! Everyone seems itching to make their own statement, above and beyond Brahms' own; which has, of course, had the side-effect of producing a good tradition of niche readings (e.g. the Klemperer, or the late Bernstein). But the interpretational 'mainstream' is awfully lacking in the 3rd symphony, compared to the 1st, or the ubiquitous 4th.


A relatively underrated (IMO), if a little grandiose recording of the 3rd, with similar technical drawbacks to the Columbia Walter (i.e. occasional - here rather surprising - orchestral lapses) is the 1988 Karajan; and the 1960 (Vienna) before it.

(The other studio Karajan 3rds, from '64 and '77, suffer from the interpretational-ants-in-my-pants syndrome.)

[Clever Hans]

On the other hand, so very few conductors and ensembles seem able to let it speak for itself! Everyone seems itching to make their own statement, above and beyond Brahms' own; which has, of course, had the side-effect of producing a good tradition of niche readings (e.g. the Klemperer, or the late Bernstein). But the interpretational 'mainstream' is awfully lacking in the 3rd symphony, compared to the 1st, or the ubiquitous 4th.


A relatively underrated (IMO), if a little grandiose recording of the 3rd, with similar technical drawbacks to the Columbia Walter (i.e. occasional - here rather surprising - orchestral lapses) is the 1988 Karajan; and the 1960 (Vienna) before it.

(The other studio Karajan 3rds, from '64 and '77, suffer from the interpretational-ants-in-my-pants syndrome.)

So true.

By the way, the vienna Karajan is now available in this incarnation
http://www.deccaclassics.com/cat/single?sort=newest_rec&PRODUCT_NR=4782661&SearchString=karajan+brahms+3&UNBUYABLE=1&per_page=50&flow_per_page=50&presentation=flow

[jwinter]

I have an indulgent weakness for Bernstein's Vienna third -- it's over the top, but gorgeous.  I listened to it recently, and followed it up with Furtwangler... I was tempted to start smoking just so I could have a cigarette after that...

I'm currently waiting for the mailman to bring Levine's re-released Chicago Brahms set (along with Casadesus' Mozart and a few other gems that Sony/RCA's recently let out of the vaults) -- after hearing so many good things about it over the years it'll be interesting to finally hear it for myself.  I do like the CSO in Brahms -- Solti's Brahms set is about the only recording of his that gets many spins in these parts.

 

[karlhenning]

Earlier this week I watched the first episode of Fawlty Towers. That's Brahms! That's Brahms's Third Racket!

[Geo Dude]

Since this recording hasn't been mentioned yet, I want to throw out a recommendation for Daniel Harding's recording.

None of the recordings of the third I've heard (by Mackerras, Solti, Wand) were quite satisfactory, but this one is excellent!  Well judged tempi, excellent winds, beautiful strings, and he has a good sense of rhythm.  The digital sound and the fact that it's an HIP-influenced interpretation with a chamber orchestra certainly help, too.  I have a few more recordings on my shelf to explore (and a few more coming in the mail), but this one is a favorite.

The fourth on that disc is not as great as the third; he tends to be faster than I like and I feel he loses some of the drama of the piece, however it is beautifully played.  It won't be replacing anyone's favorite, but it is a solid fourth.  The third is worth the price of admission alone, anyway.

[Drasko]

http://hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/5070017

Georges Pretre's 2008 live account of Brahms' 3rd is finally getting an official release. Unfortunately it looks like Japanese release only, though Weitblick CDs often come up at amazon marketplace.

It's a magnificent performance in the old school fashion of fluid tempos and free rubato, but never jarring, wonderfully flowing and song like. When recorded broadcasts back in 2008 were making rounds many people were quite impressed (me included).

For those who'd like to hear it, while unable to get Japanese release I've uploaded broadcast recording I have. Sound is very good and clear with only a bit of dynamic compression in the louder parts (radio style). Here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?2b5kblaax925sbx   

[NJ Joe]

Hi,
Brahms' Third is one of my favorite symphonies. I enjoyed reading this comparison of recordings on the Gramophone website.