The Historically Informed Performances (HIP) debate

[Madiel]

So, about 90 players, that is more than 4 times the actual size of Concerto Koeln.

About 90 instruments. There is a difference.

[amw]

Concerto Koeln playing Wagner? Not even you can be seriously contemplating such a horror. 

I have two comments to make.

First, I can hardly wait for them to come up with a natural, valveless Wagner tuba.

Second, if the whole thing will be recorded it will make Arthur Schoonderwoerd's one instrument per part recording of Beethoven's piano concertos look like a highly romanticized version.

I sincerely do hope this is a joke. If it's not, it only proves that the HIP gang is now "officially ripe for the madhouse".

There will also be a discreet harpsichord continuo, but only during the recitatives (which are the entire opera). I believe the Hilliard Ensemble is being drafted to sing the vocal parts.

[pjme]

Try this ( i find it still funny....):

https://www.youtube.com/v/eN5dAQLYYrs

For those who are in Cologne, early next year

Wagner, Paganini, Berlioz
20.01.2019

Richard Wagner:
Siegfried-Idyll E-Dur WWV 10

Niccolo Paganini:
Konzert für Violine und Orchester Nr 4 D-Dur MS 60

Héctor Berlioz:
Harold en Italie  op. 16 Symphonie in 4 Sätzen mit Solobratsche

Shunske Sato, Violine
Nils Mönkemeyer, Viola
Markus Hoffmann, Konzertmeister
Kent Nagano, Dirigent

https://www.concerto-koeln.de/Konzerte/event/event.49/paganini.html

[Florestan]

About 90 instruments. There is a difference.

Yes, a big one indeed: 90 instruments for 80 players.

[Florestan]

There will also be a discreet harpsichord continuo, but only during the recitatives (which are the entire opera). I believe the Hilliard Ensemble is being drafted to sing the vocal parts.

[ritter]

As a matter of fact, we've already had a so-called HIP concert performance of Parsifal here in Madrid some years ago. Thomas Hengekbrock conducted the Balthasar Neumann Chorus and Ensemble, the latter using original instruments from around 1982 (using gut strings). What certainly didn't look original at all were the bells, as they did not in the least resemble the pictures we have of the (sincedestroyed) original) Bayreuth ones.

This was part of a tour that included, apart from Madrid, some German cities. The press reports were enthusiastic, but I'd say that the performance was interesting and succesful, but not that different from many others I've expetienced. Yes, the textures were lighter if compared to e.g. Knappertsbusch, but we've already had many conductors who've "lightened" the sound of this work—or restituted its inherent lightness, one could argue—(Boulez, for instance).

The conductor's own promotional blurb can be found here.

[pjme]

Parsifal & bells - this may interest you, Ritter:

https://www.youtube.com/v/qUfo1szjPIc

Apparently there's evena brandnew Glockenklavier
https://www.youtube.com/v/dF1zz6F4aIA

source: http://www.haenchen.net/mediathek/videos/

[ritter]

Parsifal & bells - this may interest you, Ritter:

https://www.youtube.com/v/qUfo1szjPIc

Thanks, Peter. Most interesting.

I actually parked my car next to Steingraeber this summer in one of our visits to downtown Bayreuth. 

[pjme]

Bavaria is (usualy) very nice in summer. Wasn't the hill scorching this year?
I'm off to the French Alps next week - a bath of clean air, near Grenoble. Hope to see some wildlife and do some (easy) hiking.
Peter

[PerfectWagnerite]

One thing I find rather odd is that other than the Norrington/LCP there seems to be no period instrument complete Brahms symphony cycle (am I wrong?). I see Gardiner/ORR came close but seems to be missing #2.

[Madiel]

One thing I find rather odd is that other than the Norrington/LCP there seems to be no period instrument complete Brahms symphony cycle (am I wrong?). I see Gardiner/ORR came close but seems to be missing #2.

Gardiner definitely recorded all the symphonies. https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7978098--brahms-symphony-no-2

[Biffo]

One thing I find rather odd is that other than the Norrington/LCP there seems to be no period instrument complete Brahms symphony cycle (am I wrong?). I see Gardiner/ORR came close but seems to be missing #2.

Gardiner has recorded No 2, coupled with the Alto Rhapsody.

Mackerras has recorded a Brahms cycle that is HIP but not period instrument. He uses an orchestra (Scottish Chamber Orchestra) of roughly the size favoured by Brahms, around 50 players. He also uses elements of style such as vibrato and portamento as Brahms would have known.

[Mandryka]

A long time ago Andrei asked for an example of early HIP music practice. The Machaut mass may just be an example. It was performed regularly, every year i think, after his death. The world of chant may be another example. As may be the special place that the Albinoni Misere had in the Vatican. I also wonder about the history of Strauss waltz performance in Vienna

Anyway I post this to show that it's far from evident  that HIP is a recent phenomenon. Obviously I haven't  done the.necessary work

In a discussion today someone suggested that the work of the monks at Solesmes Abbey is an example of HIP. For the past 150 years or so these guys have tried to make sense of medieval performance practice, specifically for Gregorian chant. They claim to use scientific methods to decipher parchments full of neums and the like.  Maybe it's all linked to the 19th century interest in philology (remember Casaubon in Middlemarch, wasn't he interested in philology - or was it myths or the authors of the Bible? Can't remember.)

Anyway if this is right it's not quite correct to say that HIP is a preoccupation of the second half of the 20th century.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

Gardiner definitely recorded all the symphonies. https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7978098--brahms-symphony-no-2

Long out of print EMI recordings of the London Classical Players from the early 90's. I had them at one point and sold them to a used record shop when I was in a down phase on Norrington. Now I wish I had them back.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Long out of print EMI recordings of the London Classical Players from the early 90's. I had them at one point and sold them to a used record shop when I was in a down phase on Norrington. Now I wish I had them back.

They seem to be available from Japan for 35 bucks or so not too bad.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

They seem to be available from Japan for 35 bucks or so not too bad.

Ordering things from Japan is a barrier I have not crossed yet.

They also can be obtained from arkivmusic.com as burned discs, a bit pricier. If I really, really wanted them I'd go one of those routes. Mainly I feel great curiosity about them. The point is, if I hadn't sold them for pennies on the dollar years ago they'd be free.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Ordering things from Japan is a barrier I have not crossed yet.

They also can be obtained from arkivmusic.com as burned discs, a bit pricier. If I really, really wanted them I'd go one of those routes. Mainly I feel great curiosity about them. The point is, if I hadn't sold them for pennies on the dollar years ago they'd be free.

They are sold through Amazon in the U.S.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014Q298DM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

They are sold through Amazon in the U.S.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014Q298DM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Something to consider, but I am under self-imposed austerity.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Something to consider, but I am under self-imposed austerity.

Looks like a newer reissue as it says ERATO. I am a big Norrington fan. If it is 15 bucks cheaper i will take the plunge.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

Looks like a newer reissue as it says ERATO. I am a big Norrington fan. If it is 15 bucks cheaper i will take the plunge.

Presumably released only in Japan so far. If the U.S. or European distributor gets around to releasing it the price will go way down and I will probably be unable to resist. In the mean time, the original release of recording of Symphony No 2 seems to still be in circulation and reasonably cheap. I might spring for a used copy of that, to satisfy my curiosity.