The Historically Informed Performances (HIP) debate

[Scarpia]

If you are still reading I think that period style performance practice is very much an artistic statement.  And a bold one too.  Choosing it to play the music of the baroque and classical era in a way that few do is to approach the music with a very different aesthetic. 

I think that period performance is a part of the evolution of performance practice, it's not separate.  I see an evolution and a lineage dating back to Karl Richter and earlier.  There was a fork in the road, that is how I would put it.  To move down one road might be seen as a disavowal of the other path, but for PIons to disavow the modern style is just as valid as MIsters to disavow period style.  They made their choice, but sometimes they meet in a clearing between the roads and have an exchange of ideas.  There is room to appreciate more than one approach to music making.

We need to move beyond superficial ideas that period performance practice is not art.  It is.

Quite so.  All art involves constraints, in painting it is what can be communicated by pigments on a flat surface, in a piano sonata two hands and a more-or-less well defined instrument, in dance rhythmic movements of a trained body.  PI performance involves the experiment of finding out what can be done performing music on instruments of the era and by taking into account customs of the era.  Seeing if things become apparent that weren't apparent on modern instruments.

There may be PI performers who really see their role as limited by scholarship, but I think most see PI as an enhancement of their musical resources.  Harnoncourt was in the cello section of the Vienna symphony and I seem to recall him writing about the experience of playing Beethoven under Karajan and appreciating the performance tradition that Karajan represented but feeling that there was something in the music that was not coming across.  Harnoncourt, Brautigam, Hogwood, and others span both worlds, and each enriches the other.

[mc ukrneal]

Certainly they are. And since there isn't a bigger fan of PI on this forum, I have the right to say that the majority of people here would feel the same. As I have occasionally mentioned as a point of wonderment for me; I see 10X more hostility towards HIP from MI fans than I see from PIons towards MI. That's day in day out.

Well, good to hear I am not so dense after all. May I suggest, though, that accusing one side of more hostility simply makes that side more irritated and cranky (and more hostile?). What's more, I think there are different types of hostilities. Perhaps one side is more obvious about it. In any case, there are cranks on both sides, enough to drive a rational person insane.

[DavidRoss]

Can I ask a stupid question?

Can't one get to the spirit of the music regardless of the instruments and approach used?

Here's another way of looking at it: Two groups perform a piece of music: one PI and one MI. Let's assume they both play it well and bring something to listener (and let's also assume they are both playing it in good faith for the listener). Would you agree that both are valid (though preferences may differ, just like any comparison)?

Yep.

May I suggest, though, that accusing one side of more hostility simply makes that side more irritated and cranky (and more hostile?).

Yep.

[Karl Henning]

Well, in the case of at least one individual, though, it is no matter of accusation, but of observation.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, good to hear I am not so dense after all. May I suggest, though, that accusing one side of more hostility simply makes that side more irritated and cranky (and more hostile?). What's more, I think there are different types of hostilities. Perhaps one side is more obvious about it. In any case, there are cranks on both sides, enough to drive a rational person insane.

Well, Karl anticipated my reply, but I will say that as long as you have known me now, you should certainly know that I am not an accuser, merely an observer. I didn't even get involved in this discussion when in fact its subject is near and dear to me.

[mc ukrneal]

Well, Karl anticipated my reply, but I will say that as long as you have known me now, you should certainly know that I am not an accuser, merely an observer. I didn't even get involved in this discussion when in fact its subject is near and dear to me.

I want to say up front that I have nothing but respect for you and am not trying to be antagonistic or place blame or anything like that. I must admit that I interpreted what you wrote differently the first time I read it. If we stick to the facts, the fact is that you stated an observation. These are the only facts we have (from that sentence: you observed that hostility by MIers to PIers is 10x more). But there are a number of implications there (regardless of whether you meant them or not). Here are just a few:
1. 10x is a fact, and others should accept that
2. PIers are victims, those big, bad (and ugly! ) MIers are always attacking us
3. 10x more hostility implies an MI might be ashamed if that is a fact (some people react from shame with hostility)
4. Since I observed it, it must be true (implying one person's observations are more meaningful than another's)
Etc...

So I guess the only thing I can say now is that my experience is completely different and that I have observed more or less equal hostility from both sides.

Anyway, this is making me hungary (and I feel my sugar is low) so I will return after I've eaten.

[Gurn Blanston]

I want to say up front that I have nothing but respect for you and am not trying to be antagonistic or place blame or anything like that. I must admit that I interpreted what you wrote differently the first time I read it. If we stick to the facts, the fact is that you stated an observation. These are the only facts we have (from that sentence: you observed that hostility by MIers to PIers is 10x more). But there are a number of implications there (regardless of whether you meant them or not). Here are just a few:
1. 10x is a fact, and others should accept that
2. PIers are victims, those big, bad (and ugly! ) MIers are always attacking us
3. 10x more hostility implies an MI might be ashamed if that is a fact (some people react from shame with hostility)
4. Since I observed it, it must be true (implying one person's observations are more meaningful than another's)
Etc...

So I guess the only thing I can say now is that my experience is completely different and that I have observed more or less equal hostility from both sides.

Anyway, this is making me hungary (and I feel my sugar is low) so I will return after I've eaten.

Certainly they are. And since there isn't a bigger fan of PI on this forum, I have the right to say that the majority of people here would feel the same. As I have occasionally mentioned as a point of wonderment for me; I see 10X more hostility towards HIP from MI fans than I see from PIons towards MI. That's day in day out.

Patently an observation. In order for 10X to be accusatory, I would have had to go back and count instances, which obviously I didn't (I'm stunned to consider that there are people who would have, though! ). It is merely a figure of speech, like "I'd give a million dollars to have someone record the dozen Haydn works I don't already have". Clearly I wouldn't, but it is indicative of a desire. One could almost call it a figure of speech.

I am having a discussion elsewhere on the problems of trying to convey emotions in writing so that the reader can be on the same page as the writer in terms of understanding the quality of his emotions when he writes something. It is difficult to communicate such things, and afterwards the writer is left feeling that "he didn't understand a word that I said". I think that is the root cause of InterWeb misunderstandings. If we were sitting in a café and just talking about music performance, and that exact same turn of conversation came about, you would have known instantly that I was using a non-accusatory manner of speech, and that I was exaggerating for the sake of effect, and you wouldn't have thought twice about it.

To be perfectly clear; anyone can, to my satisfaction, listen to any music and/or performance style which enables the music to speak to him/her and satisfies his/her aesthetic demands or for whatever other reason that he/she listens to music. My personal level of demand on this decision is nil, zero, non-existent. 

[DavidRoss]

There are "PI-ers" who demonstrate hostility toward "MI-ers?" Where? I have never encountered this phenomenon.

[Sammy]

Those who dump on the musical preferences of others are just a bunch of toxic jerks not deserving our support, consideration or response.

[Gurn Blanston]

Those who dump on the musical preferences of others are just a bunch of toxic jerks not deserving our support, consideration or response.

Well, there's that. Although that only becomes painful when you know the person involved is NOT a toxic jerk, and then you are left wondering.   

[DavidW]

What I have noticed is the implicit assumption that using MI is the norm and PI diverts from this norm and can be judged on that account. 

As far as I know there are no threads such as "MI performances of Mozart", or "MI Beethoven", or "MI practice", etc., the closest thread of that type would be the "Bach on the piano" thread.  The threads devoted to PI seem to turn up fairly often.  And just as often as one of the PI threads appears there will be someone joining the discussion for no other purpose than to dis PI or HIP.

I could be wrong but my observation is the same as Gurn's although I could not put a number to it.

I think that is because the unspoken majority of performances of classical and romantic era are modern instruments.  But PI has effectively conquered the baroque era, making Bach on MI the minority.  There is an automatic bias and rejection of baroque era music done in a traditional way these days.

[Scarpia]

Oh, I don't disagree with you - I was just stating the obvious, I guess.  But I don't think Bach on piano is so out of fashion as to be questioned.

I do find it unfortunate and saddening that there are still people who feel the need to argue against the basic idea behind historically informed performance practice and the use of period instruments.  It is not as if music performance is a zero sum game, i.e. a PI recording takes a slot that could be filled by a MI recording.  More choice is good, imo. 

And how is it hurting someone if there is a period recording of Mozart symphonies?

I just don't understand the motivation of people who argue against HIP.

Believe me, there are threads on this site where, if you admit to listening to Bach played on a piano, you will be treated like an orangutan. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Believe me, there are threads on this site where, if you admit to listening to Bach played on a piano, you will be treated like an orangutan. 

Well, orangutan's are cute, except when they are picking their asses....

I personally have a very hard time liking Bach on a piano, but if you do, by all means enjoy it! 

By way of contrast and to illustrate my earlier point, you don't see in this spot a need to move along by adding the equivalent to Beecham's comment about harpsichords and skeletons screwing on a tin roof. That is the sort of hostility that I was referring to earlier.

[Opus106]

Believe me, there are threads on this site where, if you admit to listening to Bach played on a piano, you will be treated like an orangutan. 

[bigshot]

By way of contrast and to illustrate my earlier point, you don't see in this spot a need to move along by adding the equivalent to Beecham's comment about harpsichords and skeletons screwing on a tin roof. That is the sort of hostility that I was referring to earlier.

I don't care whether I agree with the point or not. Anyone with the wit and humor of Beecham can feel free to let loose. I'll be loving it.

[bigshot]

Huh? That's about as dogmatic as it's possible to be ... and every bit as wrong. No doubt it's true of some painters (and other artists) some of the time, however.

I'm betting that you aren't a creative artist yourself and don't work closely with any.

By the way, this isn't a criticism. It's an observation. The principle I was pointing to is one of the most fundamental concepts in the creative process.

[Gurn Blanston]

I don't care whether I agree with the point or not. Anyone with the wit and humor of Beecham can feel free to let loose. I'll be loving it.

Being witty doesn't make you correct. What he was offering as a bon mot subsequently became a truism/point of argument among people who happened to agree with him. I do agree with you, Beecham was a funny bastard. That this makes his opinion of harpsichords more valid than yours or mine doesn't follow. Just sayin'.

[Scarpia]

I'm betting that you aren't a creative artist yourself and don't work closely with any.

Hold on, my popcorn isn't ready yet.   

[Karl Henning]

Well played, Scarps!

[bigshot]

Beecham was a funny bastard. That this makes his opinion of harpsichords more valid than yours or mine doesn't follow. Just sayin'.

But it is a whole lot more pointedly entertaining! And that counts more than being right to me.