The Art of Jascha Horenstein

[Leo K.]

London Symphony, 1966, Music and Arts/CD235(1986)
Despite the lower sound quality the performance on the Music and Arts release really shines through...the Adagio is truly otherworldly. I think this concert now may be at the top or at least in the top 3 of my M9 choices...it is that incredible. The climaxes in the first movement are more crashing than I remembered...the third climax is really shattering (with the low A flat in the horn heard well, and the brass very piercing overall with excellant tam tam and timpani).  The details in the orchestration are quite vivid in this mono recording.  

London Symphony, 1966, BBC Legends (2001)
The performance on the BBC Legends release only suffers from the underwhelming Rondo movement, with the timapani player getting lost near the end, and an unfortunate mistake in the horn playing at a crucial point (when the horn takes on the main melody in the first section of the final Adagio)...otherwise the second movement shows much character and psychological intensity.  The first movement here is devastating, with great contrast in dynamics with tempo choices holding the line of argument in a very tense manner.  All in all, an essential Mahler 9 dispite the execution...the overall effect is quite satisfying and intriging...with many discoveries on each return hearing.

Orchestra Nationale, 1967, Disques Montaigne/TCE8862 (1988)
Horenstein's Orchestra Nationale Mahler 9 has it's moments as well, with unfortunate scrappy playing of the orchestra letting him down most of the time...still, I like to listen to this M9 because some of the ideas are very moving (especially in the first movement and Adagio).  In particular, there are many details heard in the score I haven't heard elsewhere.  

Despite the playing, the architecture is heard, and the effect is like a noble peformance as heard through suffering execution...which gives the work an even more desparate sound.  Probably for completists only.


American Symphony, 1969, Music and Arts/CD785 (1993)
I almost prefer Horenstein's ASO Mahler 9 from Carnigie Hall (1969) as much as the 1966 LSO M&A performance...he has some interesting ideas in the first movement quite different than his other live M9's...and the playing, not counting an out of tune horn in one spot, is largely better then the BBC Legends M9...this surprised me.  

The ASO play their hearts out. Again in the first movement the climaxes are truly powerful.  In comparing the 1st movement with the 1st movement of his LSO accounts, I noticed Horenstein changed his thinking on the role of the timpani in the aftermath of the 1st and 3rd climax, they are not struck as hard as before, reminiscent of the timpani has heard on the Macal (on Exton) and the Bertini (on EMI) accounts of this work.  

Back to the ASO, the 2nd and 3rd climaxes in the 1st movement are the most powerful of all Horenstein M9's...with a sense of mystery, with the tam tam very present and deep.  The sound is much more improved over his London M9's, and his Orchestra Nationale M9.

---------------

P.S. I also started on listening to my old vox LP's of Horenstein's Vienna Symphony M9...but I didn't finish listening to this so will comment later since it's been some time since I listened to it.

[DavidW]

That BBC Legends recording had that painfully long drawn out final movement right?  It was just awful!  What happened, why did he take it so glacially slow?  It wasn't remotely musical.

[Sergeant Rock]

That BBC Legends recording had that painfully long drawn out final movement right?  It was just awful!  What happened, why did he take it so glacially slow?  It wasn't remotely musical.

I haven't heard it but Hurwitz says it's just over 25 minutes. Not particularly slow or fast. The real problem with this performance is the Rondo:

"The Rondo Burleske is a catastrophe. Starting with a flatulent trumpet and soggy strings, it proceeds from disaster to disaster. The first occurs at measure 186 (after the first loud cymbal crash), where horns and trumpets get out of sync. Next, a few seconds later at measure 198, the trumpets have disappeared entirely and the horns and lower strings can't agree on when to play. And then there's the timpanist. First, he misses his sforzando roll at measure 438 (beneath that wonderful chord on muted brass that introduces the first harp glissando). Then, just before the final stretto he comes in two bars early in his crucial solo, and also at his next three (!) entrances, only saving himself in time for the last few measures. And all of this takes place in the context of some very shaky ensemble (strings especially), at a plodding tempo that makes Mahler's counterpoint sound not just disjointed but at times totally disconnected. So the outer sections move too slowly while the middle interlude, with no "holding back" as Mahler demands, comes across as too fast and sadly neutral in expression, contrast, and point." --Hurwitz

The M&A performance seems to be the one to get (or the earlier Vox).

Sarge

[DavidW]

I haven't heard it but Hurwitz says it's just over 25 minutes. Not particularly slow or fast. The real problem with this performance is the Rondo:

I'm pretty sure he's wrong then, because I have heard it and it easily breaks 30 minutes.  In fact, it's known (infamous) for being the longest on record!

[Sergeant Rock]

I'm pretty sure he's wrong then, because I have heard it and it easily breaks 30 minutes.  In fact, it's known (infamous) for being the longest on record!

You could be right although if you are it's hard to see how Hurwitz missed that fact. He even mentions that the tempo can't be faulted. I can't find the actual timings online. Maybe Leo will enlighten us.

Sarge

[Drasko]

25'50

[Sergeant Rock]

25'50

Thanks, Drasko. Maybe David was thinking of Horenstein's M6 which does have a very slow Finale, over 33 minutes. Or maybe he got his "steins" mixed up and he's thinking of Bernstein's DG M9 which does crawl along at an excessively slow speed.

Sarge

[Leo K.]

By the way, any thoughts on this set?



I've had it for awhile, but haven't really dived in yet.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Or maybe he got his "steins" mixed up and he's thinking of Bernstein's DG M9 which does crawl along at an excessively slow speed.

Sarge

There is no way you will ever confuse Horenstein's skills as a conductor with Bernstein.

[Sergeant Rock]

There is no way you will ever confuse Horenstein's skills as a conductor with Bernstein.

Well, skill aside, they are very different personalities and conductors. I can enjoy both approaches.

Sarge

[ccar]

You could be right although if you are it's hard to see how Hurwitz missed that fact. He even mentions that the tempo can't be faulted. I can't find the actual timings online. Maybe Leo will enlighten us.
Sarge

In the covers of the BBC Legends Horenstein's Mahler 9th (LSO Royal Albert Hall 15 Sept 1966) it is inscribed 26:50 for the last movement. But when you listen to the recording and you consider the applauses and the spacing the Adagio actually takes "only" 25:50.
I understand the interest of discussing the tempi of the various readings but I must confess some hesitation. More than the "global time" of a movement my listening sensibility usually goes into the "timing" of the musical phrasing. For me, if the musical phrases are beautifully and interestingly done the tempo is probably "right". And in fact most of the great conductors, even those considered more faithful to the "urtext", gave us very different performances of the same works.  And this is what I look for – the richness of perspective we get from those very individual performances.

A good example of this variability may be in comparing the BBC Legends with the Music & Arts releases of the Mahler 9th also by Horenstein and with the same orchestra (they were initially considered to be the same recording but the M&A is probably from a different LSO performance in April 1966, at The Royal Festival Hall). Contrary to some critics of excessively slow tempo in the BBC Legends recording, the old M&A version has been very much praised – but when you look closely the Adagio of the M&A performance takes even longer –27:40 ! (28:02 in the cover with the applause)
               

[E d o]

In looking into his various Mahler 9's to see if I need to get one, I found this that Alex Ross wrote for the NY Times:
"Music and Arts has released competing accounts of the Mahler Ninth from Horenstein's later years, one with the London Symphony in 1962 (CD-235) and one with the American Symphony in 1969 (CD-785). Both have the swaying, searching energy typical of the conductor, though the London performance is distinctly better played and recorded. "
As usual conflicting opinions abound!

[Leo K.]

In looking into his various Mahler 9's to see if I need to get one, I found this that Alex Ross wrote for the NY Times:
"Music and Arts has released competing accounts of the Mahler Ninth from Horenstein's later years, one with the London Symphony in 1962 (CD-235) and one with the American Symphony in 1969 (CD-785). Both have the swaying, searching energy typical of the conductor, though the London performance is distinctly better played and recorded. "
As usual conflicting opinions abound!

I definitely would try to get the Music and Arts Horenstein LSO M9 (CD-235), I think it's still rather easy to find from the Amazon used seller market...if you happen to see the American Symphony one (CD-785) by all means get it if the price isn't too high, as it is rather rare and expensive these days.

[listener]

I have on LP , pressed in Holland Stravinsky  Le Sacre du printemps, and see that Music and Arts have a CD transfer.  The LP label says stereo and mono, I'll have to get it on the turntable to find out.

[ccar]

Beethoven's Missa Solemnis is not the easiest work to grasp.
In my mind many performances are either too heavy, too forcedly driven or lightly superficial, failing to give the sense of inner dramatic effect I look for.
For me, the Jascha Horenstein BBC SO is a truly moving and enlightening performance.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZGGJlN3XQ8&feature=related

[mjwal]

I'm bumping this, though my experience of Horenstein's recordings is regrettably slim, because in doing a websearch for downloads I discovered this on YouTube - a fascinating interview on Mahler, Berg et al. What really dumbfounds me is what H. reports Berg said about Delius; I bet Adorno was irritated as hell by this penchant of his teacher's - if Alban mentioned it to him or in fact ever got a word in sideways - Teddy certainly kept mum later on, as it wouldn't have "done" at all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv690IezMCs

[Mandryka]

I'm bumping this, though my experience of Horenstein's recordings is regrettably slim, because in doing a websearch for downloads I discovered this on YouTube - a fascinating interview on Mahler, Berg et al. What really dumbfounds me is what H. reports Berg said about Delius; I bet Adorno was irritated as hell by this penchant of his teacher's - if Alban mentioned it to him or in fact ever got a word in sideways - Teddy certainly kept mum later on, as it wouldn't have "done" at all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv690IezMCs

In 1958 he  stood in for Klemperer at a Missa Solemnis prom with Peter Pears,Theresa  Stich Randall and Norma Procter .  The result was recorded for radio but never released -- the BBC did released a Missa from hom but it is nowhere near as good as this. I have it of course -- let me know if you want a link to it.

[Leo K.]

I am amazed to finally find a recording of Horenstein's Mahler 5, with the Berlin Philharmonic, live, August 31, 1961, Edinburgh Festival!

Expected poor sound, I was pleasantly surprised to hear the sound wasn't too bad. The blog I found this on has restored this recording really well:

http://metrognomemusic.blogspot.com/

I listened to it last night and was immediately taken with it. This performance captures all the dark orchestral effects like I haven't heard before, and the tempo holds it all together and time flys by. The BPO sound is incredible!



Has anyone else heard this?

[Leo K.]

As I just mentioned in the Mahler thread, I'm listening to a fascinating account of the Symphony No. 3 led by Jascha Horenstein, with Helen Watts Highgate School Choir, Orpington Junior Singers London Symphony Chorus and Orchestra Royal Festival Hall, from London 1960. See the link to the blog in the post before this. You can find it there.

I like this 1960 much better than the 1970 on the Unicorn label. The sound is more open, the performance has the excitement of a live occassion, with power and drive, with the most wonderful gentle passages that takes my breath away. Nothing drags, it moves along with great detail and exuberance.

[PerfectWagnerite]

I have had the Unicorn recording for many years and I don't understand what people hear in this recording that they go crazy over it. It is a good, solid recording, pretty well-played and conducted in a rather workman-like manner. I just don't think it deserves the hype that it does. Musicweb calls it "the most famous Mahler recording of all time" without any sort of qualification. I take it famous is not tantamount to overall quality.

I have listened to it numerous time. The conducting is rather straightforward, not much in the way of intervention of fussiness (which can be a great virtue). There are 3 main problems with this recording:

1) Jascha Horenstein's ability as a conductor is severely challenged. No more so than in the final movement when numerous crescendos, diminuendos, subtle tempo changes totally escape him. If you grab a score and follow along you will see what I am talking about. This is a very micro-managed movement (by Mahler, not Horenstein) with very explicit directions for almost every single bar, and half of these directions Horenstein simply ignore. To compare you can grab Bernstein's SONY NYPO recording and hear how Bernstein manages all these with such nuance and fluidity.
2) The playing of the LSO is competent but nothing spectacular. The posthorn solo especially is weak, rather lacking in the "freely played" nature that Mahler asked for. The coda of the final movement from the brass especially sound pinched, nowhere near the "saturated noble tone, but not with brute power" that Mahler asked for. In general I am not a big fan of this band playing Mahler, there just isn't enough contrast overall to make the music work. You hear the same issues in playing in the Solti recording with the same band although the conducting is better.
3) The recording is rather thin, at times the bass fades in and out. This is particulary egregious in the first movement where all those runs in the contrabasses don't come out as biting as they should.

So I would be happy to hear why people think this recording is so great.