Granville Bantock (1868-1946)

[vandermolen]

Back in the late 1970s I went to hear a performance (presumably for a BBC broadcast) at Maida Vale Studios of a 4-movement Choral Symphony - googling suggests this may have been Atalanta in Calydon, but I have no recollection of the title. The music was pleasant enough without being particularly memorable. What was odd was the assertion that Bantock intended each movement be bathed in a different coloured light (Prometheus-like?) which the Maida Vale people made some attempt to reproduce.

As a young child I was brought up in Maida Vale. Letter on when I became interested in music I often went there and was part of the small audience in the studio there. My uncle worked for the Performing Rights Society which made it easy for us to get tickets. I remember hearing Walter Susskind conduct Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet Suite and I heard Britten's Sinfonia da Requiem for the first time there. Happy memories.

[Moonfish]

Bantock: Pagan Symphony         Royal PO/Handley

Listened to this work three times over the last few days. Interesting work. Much harder (at least for me) to appreciate compared to his Celtic Symphony or The Witch of Atlas.

At first I was surprised how different this work was compared to the other two I heard. Each movement seems to have a very unique flavor. I was not too thrilled by the intense percussion in the 3rd movement (a pagan dance?), while the incredible fanfare at the beginning of the 4th movement was both jarring and engaging. As I listened to this work several times I started to move from initial dislike to an appreciation. It also seemed like I was hearing a strange blend of Richard Strauss (complex shining soundscapes), Vaughan Williams (an emotional push within the movements) and Mendelssohn (a bit more traditional symphonic components). Was that my imagination? The first movement is the one I favor the most - it seems like a complete tone poem on its own - as it feels complete in it harmonies. It is so strange with the drastic shifts in the different movements. The Celtic Symphony was a very late work of his (1940) while the Pagan Symphony was composed much earlier (1927). Could that play a role in how they unfolded?
Regardless, do you enjoy the Pagan Symphony?

[vandermolen]

Bantock: Pagan Symphony         Royal PO/Handley

Listened to this work three times over the last few days. Interesting work. Much harder (at least for me) to appreciate compared to his Celtic Symphony or The Witch of Atlas.

At first I was surprised how different this work was compared to the other two I heard. Each movement seems to have a very unique flavor. I was not too thrilled by the intense percussion in the 3rd movement (a pagan dance?), while the incredible fanfare at the beginning of the 4th movement was both jarring and engaging. As I listened to this work several times I started to move from initial dislike to an appreciation. It also seemed like I was hearing a strange blend of Richard Strauss (complex shining soundscapes), Vaughan Williams (an emotional push within the movements) and Mendelssohn (a bit more traditional symphonic components). Was that my imagination? The first movement is the one I favor the most - it seems like a complete tone poem on its own - as it feels complete in it harmonies. It is so strange with the drastic shifts in the different movements. The Celtic Symphony was a very late work of his (1940) while the Pagan Symphony was composed much earlier (1927). Could that play a role in how they unfolded?
Regardless, do you enjoy the Pagan Symphony?

I like your analysis, which I largely agree with. Yes, I do like the Pagan Symphony and have three recordings (Downes, Boult and Handley). I find it to be both powerful and atmospheric. I especially like the last part of it.

[cilgwyn]

I'm not saying it's a better performance;but I actually play the Downes BBC Radio Classics cd when I want to hear the Pagan Symphony. This is partly because I don't like Fifine at the Fair that much;and also because I prefer the couplings on the Downes cd,ie Bax's Tintagel and his Northern Ballads 2 & 3. I just think they have more in common,in terms of atmosphere (and,how best to describe it?) that 'legendary' quality. I think they go very well together and I do like Downe's performances.
In the same 'legendary' romantic vein,I do like Downe's recordings of Boughton's second and third  symphonies on the same label,very much. Boughton's fine third symphony has received a commercial recording on the Hyperion label.but alas (imho) Boughton's lovely "Deirdre" A Celtic Symphony,with it's ravishing second movement,which made such an impression on me,when I heard the original broadcast on R3,back in the 1980's,has yet to receive the same attention from Hyperion or Chandos (or Dutton!)! Oh well,the Downes performances are very good! (I also like Hyperions Aylesbury Games cd,very much (also Boughton). Like Schreker,I sometimes wish Boughton had concentrated more on orchestral works.
Apologies for going a little off-topic!

[cilgwyn]

And for the italics!!!

[vandermolen]

I'm not saying it's a better performance;but I actually play the Downes BBC Radio Classics cd when I want to hear the Pagan Symphony. This is partly because I don't like Fifine at the Fair that much;and also because I prefer the couplings on the Downes cd,ie Bax's Tintagel and his Northern Ballads 2 & 3. I just think they have more in common,in terms of atmosphere (and,how best to describe it?) that 'legendary' quality. I think they go very well together and I do like Downe's performances.
In the same 'legendary' romantic vein,I do like Downe's recordings of Boughton's second and third  symphonies on the same label,very much. Boughton's fine third symphony has received a commercial recording on the Hyperion label.but alas (imho) Boughton's lovely "Deirdre" A Celtic Symphony,with it's ravishing second movement,which made such an impression on me,when I heard the original broadcast on R3,back in the 1980's,has yet to receive the same attention from Hyperion or Chandos (or Dutton!)! Oh well,the Downes performances are very good! (I also like Hyperions Aylesbury Games cd,very much (also Boughton). Like Schreker,I sometimes wish Boughton had concentrated more on orchestral works.
Apologies for going a little off-topic!

I also play the BBC Radio Classics version of the Pagan Symphony for exactly the same reason as you do! I wish that RCA would release their LSO/Downes version of Bax's Third Symphony, which is my favourite version by far - this is unlikely to happen I suspect.  It's a pity that Dutton didn't release Boughton's 'Celtic Symphony' instead of the turgid 'Oliver Cromwell Symphony' which I find very boring, unlike the wonderfully moving coupling of Edgar Bainton's Third Symphony.

[cilgwyn]

Yes,Boughton's First is a bit of a 'clunker'! To be fair,it's an early effort,though. I also don't think much of his String quartets,either! I do wish Dutton hadn't coupled those two works......and yes,Boughton's Second would have been preferable. It would have gone down very well here anyway!! As to the Handley cd. I would play that version more often if it didn't have the Fifine coupling. Although,having said that,I would still play the Downes CD because of the Bax. Funnily enough,even though it's ancient and cut,I do prefer Beecham's recording of Fifine;if I want to listen to it at all! Although,I must admit,I usually only play Beecham's Fifine because of the other music on the cd,ie The Garden of Fand and the suite from Berner's The Triumph of Neptune;a piece of music which,for some reason,I really do like! (I also have the Sony/CBS recording,the EMI and the complete Marco Polo,which is marred by that labels 'bathroom' acoustics). It is interesting that Beecham's favourite piece of music by Bantock seems to have been one of his least typical efforts. It also doesn't surprise me! I am a bit of a Beecham fan,though. (I bought the Sony cd of his Elgar recordings recently).

[vandermolen]

Yes,Boughton's First is a bit of a 'clunker'! To be fair,it's an early effort,though. I also don't think much of his String quartets,either! I do wish Dutton hadn't coupled those two works......and yes,Boughton's Second would have been preferable. It would have gone down very well here anyway!! As to the Handley cd. I would play that version more often if it didn't have the Fifine coupling. Although,having said that,I would still play the Downes CD because of the Bax. Funnily enough,even though it's ancient and cut,I do prefer Beecham's recording of Fifine;if I want to listen to it at all! Although,I must admit,I usually only play Beecham's Fifine because of the other music on the cd,ie The Garden of Fand and the suite from Berner's The Triumph of Neptune;a piece of music which,for some reason,I really do like! (I also have the Sony/CBS recording,the EMI and the complete Marco Polo,which is marred by that labels 'bathroom' acoustics). It is interesting that Beecham's favourite piece of music by Bantock seems to have been one of his least typical efforts. It also doesn't surprise me! I am a bit of a Beecham fan,though. (I bought the Sony cd of his Elgar recordings recently).

I quite like Fifine but also play the Beecham recording. His Sibelius No.4 is the outstanding version of that symphony in my view. I also like the Berners work and his Nicholas Nickleby film music.

[cilgwyn]

I don't hate Fifine....I just think it's one of Bantock's least interesting pieces of music. Thalaba is another one. A great name.......but I was very disappointed by what I heard!
Beecham's recording of 'The Tempest' is fantastic,too! Marvelous stuff!

[vandermolen]

I don't hate Fifine....I just think it's one of Bantock's least interesting pieces of music. Thalaba is another one. A great name.......but I was very disappointed by what I heard!
Beecham's recording of 'The Tempest' is fantastic,too! Marvelous stuff!

Yes, I agree about the Tempest although I like the Charles Groves version too. Back to Bantock, my favourite works are the Hebridean and Celtic symphonies. Do you know Omar Khayyam?

There's an interesting and entertaining Bantock discography here:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/bantock/bantdisc.htm

[cilgwyn]

I hope Chandos are going to record more Bantock. They say they are. They have also confirmed (more than once) that they are interested in recording Holbrooke. I do wonder if they are just being polite to their forum users,however?!!

[Rons_talking]

I heard Omar Kayyam for the first time last night and was impressed and delighted by the performance. My favorite is the Hebridean Symphony--so lyrical. I'm not sure I'd call it a symphony, however... .

[vandermolen]

I heard Omar Kayyam for the first time last night and was impressed and delighted by the performance. My favorite is the Hebridean Symphony--so lyrical. I'm not sure I'd call it a symphony, however... .

Thank you for this. I must listen to OK ( ). I agree about the Hebridean but also like the Celtic Symphony, which amazingly I heard live and the Pagan Symphony.

[cilgwyn]

Yes, I agree about the Tempest although I like the Charles Groves version too. Back to Bantock, my favourite works are the Hebridean and Celtic symphonies. Do you know Omar Khayyam?

There's an interesting and entertaining Bantock discography here:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/bantock/bantdisc.htm

My apologies,Vandermolen. I'll come back to you on this point!

[Xanthë]

From the Chandos CD liner notes to Vernon Handley's Omar Khayyám:

"Owing to the exceptional length of Omar Khayyam, Bantock authorized various cuts and alternative truncated passages in Parts I and II. In this recording, a small number of these have been observed, always with the concern to ensure minimum disruption to the narrative flow."

I've been having a detailed listen to Omar Khayyám – but Norman Del Mar's 1979 account – which is quite splendid, and very close to complete; Del Mar's team of soloists in Walker, Rolfe Johnson and Rayner Cook are superb. Like many of the BBC's 70s/80s recordings for radio broadcast, I wonder why it has never been issued to CD; I would also be interested if anyone has any further thoughts on the controversy with regard to the much larger series of cuts in the later Chandos recording under Vernon Handley. What I've heard of excerpts of Handley, the recording quality is exemplary and it really ought to be the benchmark version of the work.

Fortunately the vocal score of the work is very easy to come by on the web (I don't know if I'm allowed to link IMSLP seeing as Bantock is nominally under copyright in the EU until 2016? A good thing he's in the public domain where I'm located.) and only Part One has any markings that indicate cuts; it appears Breitkopf & Härtel reissued the exact same plates for the most part, but in some places had to substitute replacement pages as a result of some of the larger cuts.

The authorised cuts to Part One in the score appear to be —
• 2 bars omitted in the middle of quatrain XXXI (orchestra only)
• 1 bar omitted in quatrain XXXII (orchestra only)
• 4 bars omitted in quatrain XXXIV (a repetition of the full chorus singing "The Me within Thee blind", probably requiring a new page 156 to have been re-typeset – and page 155 is now entirely superfluous)
• 3 bars omitted after quatrain XXXV
• 2 cuts of 6 and 2 bars in quatrain XXXVI (removing some the baritone soloist's repetition)
• 8 bars interlude omitted between quatrains XL and XLI (orchestra only)
• 2 bars interlude omitted between quatrains XLIII and XLIV (orchestra only)
• 27 bars interlude omitted between quatrains XLV and XLVI (orchestra only, again requiring an entire page (184) to be re-set, and the following page (185) being rendered completely redundant)
• 12 bars introduction omitted to quatrain XLIX after the end of the long 'Desert' section (orchestra only)

The new typesetting has created two anomalies in the bar numbering – there are two bar 1309s on each of page 155 and 156, while bar 1552 on page 184 is followed by the [omitted] bar 1560 on the next page! By my arithmetic these ten cuts amount to some 67 bars out of 2124 in Part One, 1001 in Part Two, and 643 in Part Three. There are no cuts whatsoever indicated in the B&H scores of Parts 2 and 3 (or maybe any cuts were never incorporated in a subsequent printing of the score?), and none are observed by Del Mar aside from the 67 bars marked in the B&H score of Part 1; most crucially, none of these cuts result in the text of Edward Fitzgerald's 101 quatrains being excised, there being only two instances of sung repetitions featuring in the omissions.

As was indicated by a very dissatisfied sponsor of the Chandos recording, a number of passages have been omitted including whole slabs of the sung text – and hearing the passages in question in Del Mar's recording, I am left pondering why they would be omitted:
• Quatrain VII in total is a substantial movement over 100 bars long (the cut would have to encompass bars 325–428)
• All but the first phrase of quatrain X would mean the cut is a short movement for the double choir, Allegretto leggiero con moto (bars 489–515 at least, without an obvious place to 'end' the cut)
• Quatrain XVI for soprano and alto double chorus (bars 721–748)
• Quatrain XVIII for full chorus (bars 781–807), followed by an exquisite Tranquillamente coda extending to bar 843, which is exactly where Bantock did authorise the work could be broken for an interval and restarted (but not really a very economic place for changing the CD over!).
• Quatrain XXIII for chorus, Vivo non troppo (bars 921–992)
• Quatrains XXXVIII and XLIX for chorus (bars 1392–1431)
• The 182-bar orchestral Interlude that opens Part Two
• Quatrains LXVI and LXVI for the tenor soloist and chorus respectively (bars 2630–2768)

Losing almost nine whole quatrains out of FitzGerald's 101, along with a substantial orchestral interlude or two or three, seems to add up to in excess of 500 bars (on top of the 67 bars apparently authorised to be cut from Part One, that Del Mar observed back in 1979). I really cannot account for failing to record these sections except because of reasons of false economy (three CDs is more than enough room to record 175 minutes of music) or questionable personal taste, which at the end of the day is very much à chaçun son goût.

For example, I might be inclined to hypothetically argue that perhaps quatrains X, XVI, and XXIII aren't amongst Bantock's strongest responses to the text (in XXIII, there's a rhythmic 2 against 3 percussion ostinato that just doesn't work for me and detracts from appreciating the rest of the music). This would not provide me with sufficient reason to omit it entirely in an account of the composition. Other of the cuts are surely unconscionable – the orchestral Interlude from Part Two is an ideal 'pick me up' to carry on with restored energy, after the draining epic of Part One and its final blasting invocations of 'Waste not your hour.' The omission of quatrains LXVI and LXVI not only rob the tenor and chorus, but this short section contains some visionary orchestral music, after the tenor describes 'I sent my Soul through the Invisible, Some letter of that After-life to spell:' and falls silent; Bantock has the orchestra undertake such a strange journey into the inexpressible, before the soloist finishes the verse.

What do commenters here think?

[Maestro267]

I absolutely love what I've heard of Bantock's music, through the Handley recordings. What wonderful orchestral soundscapes he conjures! His tone poem Thalaba the Destroyer is without question my favourite British work in the form. It has the heroic feeling of such works as Tchaikovsky's Manfred and Glière's Il'ya Muromets symphony. Earlier in the summer I bought the Hebridean and Celtic Symphonies recording. Both symphonies are stunning, with the Celtic another great addition to the rich repertoire of English works for string orchestra. The mystic harmonies in the introduction and the conclusion to the Hebridean Symphony remind me of one of my favourite passages towards the end of The Firebird, and the epilogue to RVW's London Symphony.

I've now ordered a fifth Bantock disc, with the Pagan Symphony, Fifine at the Fair (both substantial works at 35 mins each), and two brief Heroic Ballads.

[vandermolen]

I absolutely love what I've heard of Bantock's music, through the Handley recordings. What wonderful orchestral soundscapes he conjures! His tone poem Thalaba the Destroyer is without question my favourite British work in the form. It has the heroic feeling of such works as Tchaikovsky's Manfred and Glière's Il'ya Muromets symphony. Earlier in the summer I bought the Hebridean and Celtic Symphonies recording. Both symphonies are stunning, with the Celtic another great addition to the rich repertoire of English works for string orchestra. The mystic harmonies in the introduction and the conclusion to the Hebridean Symphony remind me of one of my favourite passages towards the end of The Firebird, and the epilogue to RVW's London Symphony.

I've now ordered a fifth Bantock disc, with the Pagan Symphony, Fifine at the Fair (both substantial works at 35 mins each), and two brief Heroic Ballads.

You will love that CD. It featured, some years ago in BBC Music Magazine's 'Top 1000 CDs' as their Choice for Bantock. You will recognise the Heroic Ballads from the Hebridean Symphony - it is indeed a wonderful disc. On a separate note the Epilogue of Vaughan Williams's London Symphony is even more affecting in the 1913 and recently released 1920 version (Dutton CD) as these versions include IMHO the most moving section of the Symphony which Vaughan Williams unfortunately excised from the score in 1936.

[Maestro267]

On a separate note the Epilogue of Vaughan Williams's London Symphony is even more affecting in the 1913 and recently released 1920 version (Dutton CD) as these versions include IMHO the most moving section of the Symphony which Vaughan Williams unfortunately excised from the score in 1936.

I was thinking of the 1913 version when I compared it. That passage sounds to me like it inspired Bax when he came to write his own symphonic epilogues, which are equally wonderful imo.

[vandermolen]

I was thinking of the 1913 version when I compared it. That passage sounds to me like it inspired Bax when he came to write his own symphonic epilogues, which are equally wonderful imo.

You could well be right. Bax was one of those who complained to VW about the cuts he made, including to the Epilogue, in 1936. On a separate note I came across a fine Bantock piece today. This is 'Two Choruses' which appear as a coupling to Vaughan Williams's 'Incidental Music to the Radio-Play Pilgrim's Progress' (broadcast 1943), released on Albion Records recently. The Bantock works only last in total under eight minutes (in a double CD set) but I really liked Bantock's setting of 'In Praise of Famous Men' (from Ecclesiasticus). It reminded me of Novak's 'The Storm' which is one of my favourite choral works. The recording of the Bantock is from 1929 but this posed no problem for me and added to the historic atmosphere:
[asin]B014JJB6V4[/asin]

[Daverz]

Thalaba the Destroyer is without question my favourite British work in the form.

Hmmm, I've never paid much attention to Thalaba.  From the title, it sounds like I should wait until the neighbors are not home to play at optimal playback volume.