Need help with Sibelius 5

[Sergeant Rock]

I've just re-read this extract because I was amazed that you thought the Rattle falls short - and then I realised you were talking about his 1st recording, the one that was coupled with Night Ride and Sunrise. I have the second recording coupled with Kennedy's interpretation of the Violin Concerto and I have not heard better. The transition between the old 1st and 2nd movements is overwhelming and the second movement is played to perfection (IMHO of course). If you haven't heard it, I would suggest you try it out.

I agree with you about this recording. It just might be my desert island Fifth (I'm no admirer of Rattle...but he nails this one). I doubt, though, that it's going to satisfy zauberflote. He's specifically looking for a very slow third movement (especially the final pages) which the Rattle doesn't have. Choice, it seems to me, comes down to Bernstein/New York or Vienna (10:25!!!), Maazel/Pittsburgh, or Berglund/COE.

I own Berglund/Bournemouth but zauberflote's description of the COE recording intrigued me so I bought the box (cheaper than the single disc!). Fascinating reading...and yes, those final pages are something else especially after the rather quick beginning of the movement. It's a startling contrast. I've never heard another quite like it.

Edit: For the record, I own these Fifths:

RATTLE PHILH
RATTLE CBSO
KARAJAN BERLIN PHIL (DG)
KARAJAN BERLIN PHIL (EMI)
PRÊTRE NEW PHIL
ASHKENAZY PHIL
ORMANDY PHILADELPHIA
MAAZEL PITTSBURGH
MAAZEL VIENNA
SEGERSTAM HELSINKI PHIL
BERNSTEIN NEW YORK
BERNSTEIN VIENNA
DAVIS LSO (RCA)
DAVIS BOSTON
JÄRVI GOTHENBURG S
VÄNSKÄ LAHTI SO
SANDERLING BERLIN SO
BERGLUND COE
BERGLUND BOURNEMOUTH


Sarge

[alkan]

I'm thinking of getting the Bernstein collecion of the complete Sibelius symphonies (very cheap on Amazon), but which one would
you recommend ..... NY or Vienna ?         What are the major differences (if any) in interpretation and sound quality ?

Thanks for your help

[Sergeant Rock]

I'm thinking of getting the Bernstein collecion of the complete Sibelius symphonies (very cheap on Amazon), but which one would
you recommend ..... NY or Vienna ?         What are the major differences (if any) in interpretation and sound quality ?

The biggest difference, and the most obvious: Bernstein didn't live long enough to complete the cycle for DG. It's missing 3, 4, and 6. So if you want all the symphonies conducted by Bernstein, the Sony box is the only game in town.

Interpretively: the DG performances are more mannered...highly mannered in the Second. Many hate what he does with the slow movement. It's hugely slow with the tempo pulled like taffy. I think it's fascinating...but then I'm a freak for broad tempi. In general, the Vienna performances are smoother. Take the final pages of the Fifth: those dissonances really grind in New York; not nearly so prominent in Vienna. The sound too is much leaner in New York, even harsh; there is a plushness to the Vienna sound that might not be idiomatically Sibelian?

The Sony box also includes a brilliant Pohjola's Daughter (a legendary performance) and one of my favorite Luonnatars, definitely points it its favor. I need both sets, but if I had to pick just one...for someone else...it would be New York.

Sarge

[alkan]

You convinced me to go for the NY box   

By the way, and off-topic, .....   did you get round to listening to Havergal Brian's 27th symphony?     What do you make of it?

[Sergeant Rock]

You convinced me to go for the NY box   

By the way, and off-topic, .....   did you get round to listening to Havergal Brian's 27th symphony?     What do you make of it?

I haven't listened to it yet. I've got to find the right time and the proper mood....and I want to read the chapter on 27 in the Brian Symphony book first. Soon. I'll let you know.

Sarge

[head-case]

Interpretively: the DG performances are more mannered...highly mannered in the Second. Many hate what he does with the slow movement. It's hugely slow with the tempo pulled like taffy. I think it's fascinating...but then I'm a freak for broad tempi. In general, the Vienna performances are smoother. Take the final pages of the Fifth: those dissonances really grind in New York; not nearly so prominent in Vienna. The sound too is much leaner in New York, even harsh; there is a plushness to the Vienna sound that might not be idiomatically Sibelian?

Bernstein's Sibelius second symphony is a grotesque mess, particularly that slow movement.  Sure you can turn it into something it never was by distorting the tempo beyond recognition, but Sibelius was a genius and Bernstein wasn't.  The same goes for many of Bernstein's other late recordings.  In his recording of Brahms symphony #3, Lenny decided that Brahms mean't to apply the term "allegro" to the accompanying phrases of the first movement, and not to the melody.  This allows him to slow it down to half speed.  But, of course, Brahms didn't mean this and the result is just crap.  I guess you have to give Lenny credit for convincing the VPO to do the worst performance of a Brahms symphony in their history.  Bernstein's earlier recordings are generally a safer bet, they're usually just unremarkable.

[zauberflöte]

He's specifically looking for a very slow third movement (especially the final pages) which the Rattle doesn't have. Choice, it seems to me, comes down to Bernstein/New York or Vienna (10:25!!!), Maazel/Pittsburgh, or Berglund/COE....

Sarge

Sarge, no, it's not that I like a slow third movement. I grew up on the Davis Boston which is about the quickest third movement I know. I enjoy it fast, and actually thought the first Rattle was just a shade too lethargic for my tastes. But, ultimately, that's not it. Even though I don't like the Segerstam for the way he speeds up at the end, he makes me really understand the music's architecture.
I was just drawn to the inexorably slow manner in which Berglund handles the climax of that movement, plus the heavenly return of the second theme toward the end. That's what shook me.
I could be tempted by the second Rattle, I have his third and seventh Sibelius symphonies also but they don't do much for me. But since you're not the whiner I am and just went ahead and bought the Berglund, I should probably do so too before everybody else here does and suddenly it's all sold out.

[zauberflöte]

Sarge, Just followed your lead and bought the complete COE Berglund set.
And I look at it this way: I still have a long way to go to catch up with all the versions you have. If the Berglund ultimately disappoints, I've got all these other recommendations I've found on this board to try.

[Greta]

The 5th is one of my very favorite Sibelius works, gosh, there are so many recordings of it, it's like where do you start?

zauberflote, I also love a drawn out 5th Finale, I love the idea of just "existing" in sea of sound Sibelius supplies. (How's that for alliteration? ) It's glorious music, and to me powerful and hearttugging when taken that way. To me, Sibelius 5th and 7th are so incredibly deep.

I only started collecting Sibelius this year, and have tried to acquire many 5ths, though still haven't heard what I understand are some of the best. I have some I really look forward to in the "to-hear" pile though.

I am familiar with so far -

Rattle/CBSO, Ashkenazy/Philharmonia, Davis/LSO, Davis/BSO, Salonen/Philharmonia, Saraste/Finnish RSO, and Blomstedt/SFSO. Blomstedt and Salonen are my favorites out of those.

I was rooting around on Operashare lately and there are some neat 5ths there right now. Oramo with CBSO (a whole cycle) which I haven't heard yet but would like to, and a couple of recent ones from Rattle and Salonen.

Rattle's with Berlin (from this September) is very good, fiery and colorful, with really exuberant playing, and there's one from last week when the LA Phil was in Paris, which is rather brooding and also pretty nice, especially if you like a slow Finale - Salonen clocks in at 10:27!

My "to-hear" pile includes Maazel (Vienna) (I keep meaning to get back around this set), Sanderling, Rozhdestvensky, and Celibidache (). I wish I had Bernstein and Karajan, but alas, do not yet.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I'm not usually one for cheerleading but I have such a soft spot for Vänskä. Really opened my eyes to the visionary qualities of this great music.

I would say make his fifth priority number one. Then the entire cycle, posthaste! 

[Que]

I'm not usually one for cheerleading but I have such a soft spot for Vänskä. Really opened my eyes to the visionary qualities of this great music.

I would say make his fifth priority number one. Then the entire cycle, posthaste! 

I'm not a Sibelius buff.
But after several failed attempts to get "into Sibelius" with other conductors, Vänskä sounded absolutely right to my ears!

Q

[Mark]

I'm not a Sibelius buff.
But after several failed attempts to get "into Sibelius" with other conductors, Vänskä sounded absolutely right to my ears!

Q

Vanska is rather special in these, I have to admit.

[Greta]

I do not doubt that at all!  0:)  Now, are you guys referring to the symphonies in The Essential Sibelius from BIS?

There is a very special Sibelius 2nd on MPR's SymphonyCast archive, from Vanska with the Minnesota Orchestra.

http://symphonycast.publicradio.org/programs/2007/10/08/

The playing is gorgeous and there is so much detail, and profundity....it is a fantastic performance.

I can't wait to hear his cycle. His and Berglund's are big on my radar.

[Mark]

I do not doubt that at all!  0:)  Now, are you guys referring to the symphonies in The Essential Sibelius from BIS?

There is a very special Sibelius 2nd on MPR's SymphonyCast archive, from Vanska with the Minnesota Orchestra.

http://symphonycast.publicradio.org/programs/2007/10/08/

The playing is gorgeous and there is so much detail, and profundity....it is a fantastic performance.

I can't wait to hear his cycle. His and Berglund's are big on my radar.

Greta, it's the 'basic' (as if it can be called such) cycle which Vanska recorded for BIS and which will undoubtedly appear in the Complete Sibelius Edition when the symphonies part of that project is released in 2010. Don't wait till then, however: go and download the symphonies from eClassical IMMEDIATELY.

[Sergeant Rock]

Bernstein's Sibelius second symphony is a grotesque mess, particularly that slow movement....

... a perfectly understandable reaction.   

However, a few of us find it absolutely earth-shattering. It's unique...and utterly memorable. You even remember it 

Sarge

[Mark]

... a perfectly understandable reaction.  

However, a few of us find it absolutely earth-shattering. It's unique...and utterly memorable. You even remember it 

Sarge

Must 'subject' myself to Bernstein's 'mess' again, soon. I don't remember the Second Symphony giving me that impression - it was his Third which grated on me.

[longears]

Zauberflöte--

I just stumbled onto this thread.  Hope you are enjoying the Berglund/COE set.  It's one of my favorites, especially of the 4th.  I like his approach to the 5th as well, but for my money his recording with the Bournemouth really nails it.  His HPO 5th is let down by curiously weak brass, but otherwise I like it very much, too. 

Bernstein's NYPO set from the '60s contains another great reading of the 5th.  This entire cycle is terrific and along with Berglund's hard-to-find Bournemouth set and Maazel's outing with the WP the comparison between earlier and later cycles shows that youth and enthusiasm sometimes make a fair case against old age and experience.

Although I've heard some recordings of the 5th that seem lukewarm, it's such a great symphony that it's hard to make a complete mess of it.  Even Rattle's Philharmonia recording is listenable.  Rozhdestvensky's white-hot reading with the Soviet TV & Radio Symphony may not be my ideal, but it's not to be missed if you get the chance to hear it (hmmm--another remarkable '60s cycle, come to think of it).

Here's my list comparable to Sarge's.  The asterisks mark the ones I usually reach for. 

Ashkenazy/LSO
Berglund/Bournemouth*
Berglund/HPO*
Berglund/COE*
Bernstein/NYPO*
Blomstedt/SFSO*
Davis/BSO
Davis/LSO (RCA)
Jansons/Oslo
Järvi, Neeme/Gothenburg
Karajan/BP (DG)*
Karajan/Philharmonia
Karajan/BP (EMI)
Maazel/WP*
Maazel/Pittsburg
Ormandy/PO
Rattle/CBSO
Rattle/Philharmonia
Rozhdestvensky/USSR TV&RS*
Salonen/Philharmonia
Sanderling/Berlin
Saraste/FRSO
Segerstam/DNRO*
Segerstam/HPO*
Szell/RCO
Vänskä/Lahti*

[zauberflöte]

Thanks for your input Longears. I envy your collection.
I've been listening to the Berglund COE set for about a week now. At first I thought it possibly the best complete set out there, but now I have some quibbles. The fourth of his, your favorite, seems a little too lean and un-mysterious to me. My favorite is the Karajan 4th on DG, one time when Karajan soup tastes great. In fact I like all the Karajan symphonies 4-7 he has out on DG. What an orchestra!
Of the Berglund, besides the 5th, I also like very much the 2nd, 6th and 7th. I like the 3rd too, but it takes a while to get used to the thinner quality of a chamber orchestra. Berglung augments the strings on some of the other symphonies.
I'm on a Sibelius kick. I've loved his music for 20 years but, for some reason, I'm going nuts now. In college I hated him, but I didn't know anything then and was probably influenced by the mid-century academy critics who didn't like Sibelius.
Recently I heard Colin Davis' most recent 7th with the LSO that sounded great and I've been hearing so many things about the Bernstein Sony recordings I may have to try some of those. I hear Bernstein's 2nd is fantastic, but I hear Barbirolli's 2nd is great also.
I remember being persuaded to get Szell's last performance of the 2nd, recorded live in Tokyo in 1970. It's good, but it hasn't yet made the heart tingle, at least not mine.   

[Mark]

I hear Bernstein's 2nd is fantastic ...

It's all right. Until Vanska's account on BIS leaves you emotionally shaken and overwhelmed by its close.

[longears]

I like all the Karajan symphonies 4-7 he has out on DG. What an orchestra!
I hear Bernstein's 2nd is fantastic, but I hear Barbirolli's 2nd is great also.

I agree about the Karajan 4-7 on DG.  It's not exactly what I prefer, but it's damned good!
Bernstein's 2nd with the NYPO is very good, warm but not overcooked.  Barbirolli is not my cup of soup; he boils the hell out of it.  Some really like that, though.  Just so you know where I'm coming from, my preference is for a leaner, cooler sound--i.e. Vänskä, Blomstedt, or the Berglund/COE.