The British Composers Thread

[vandermolen]

Agreed, that's a great disc.

Very hypnotic - I've played it several times this evening.

[relm1]

Been enjoying this this evening:

Not so familiar with this composer.  Will add to listening list. 

[Luke]

It's amazing, really, that the piobaireachd repertoire has been so little explored by composers. It's one of the weirdest and most interesting folk music traditions of all, not just for the complexity of the music texturally but also in its unique approach to formal questions - comparable to, though admittedly much more narrow than, the Indian clasical traditions. It's interesting that Chisholm was drawn to both, as these two concerti attest.

There were lots of mainstream European composers who wrote in a cod 'gypsy' style before Bartok came along and treated the genuine folk music with the respect and musical insight it deserved. From the results of his work, the repertoire of compositional techniques was hugely enriched - think, for instance, of the technique of additive rhythms,  which Bartok learnt from his study of Hungarian,  Romanian, Bulgarian,  Turkish and north African music, then introduced into his own compositions, and which from there became a resource from which most contemporary composers have profited. It is surprising Chisholm - often known as the 'Scottish Bartok' - is the only composer to have treated the piobaireachd tradition with similar respect and thoroughness. His  unique and highly virtuosic collection of piano pieces known simply as 'Piobaireachd,' which show him exploring the original pieces in explosively dramatic and inventive ways, should be much better known

I love the story, by the way, of Bartok visiting Chisholm whilst on tour in Glasgow,  and spending a fascinating night being introduced to piobaireachd before trotting back to his hotel in the early hours with gift of a bagpipe chanter under his arm...

[Albion]

Been enjoying this this evening:

"Ossian" and the "Two Dante Pictures" on Dutton are great as well (they've probably been deleted by now, since Dutton doesn't seem to much care to keep their legacy in print). Chisholm is serious stuff which deserves to remain in the catalogue.

It's amazing, really, that the piobaireachd repertoire has been so little explored by composers.

Alexander Mackenzie's "Pibroch" is lovely (Hyperion CDH55343), as you might expect...



 

[Luke]

Yes, it is, I'm aware of it. It's a lovely piece and I'm fond of it. There are quite a few 'pibroch' pieces like this scattered around, the equivalent of e.g. Brahms Hungarian Dances in that they use some of the surface features of a folk style to evoke a kind of picture postcard image of Scotland/Hungary. What Bartok does, and what Chisholm does, is to investigate the source material in a lot more depth - more scientifically, I suppose you could say - looking at eg its rhythmic features or its formal procedures, and extrapolating compositional strategies from them that go deeper than just pictorialism. None of what I'm saying is meant to denigrate other music, just to point out a difference of approach.

As an edit - I guess the difference is illustrated, also, in the titling: one approach uses the anglicised, easy to pronounce 'pibroch,' the othervchooses to go with the correct though more impenetrable 'piobaireachd'

[vandermolen]

It's amazing, really, that the piobaireachd repertoire has been so little explored by composers. It's one of the weirdest and most interesting folk music traditions of all, not just for the complexity of the music texturally but also in its unique approach to formal questions - comparable to, though admittedly much more narrow than, the Indian clasical traditions. It's interesting that Chisholm was drawn to both, as these two concerti attest.

There were lots of mainstream European composers who wrote in a cod 'gypsy' style before Bartok came along and treated the genuine folk music with the respect and musical insight it deserved. From the results of his work, the repertoire of compositional techniques was hugely enriched - think, for instance, of the technique of additive rhythms,  which Bartok learnt from his study of Hungarian,  Romanian, Bulgarian,  Turkish and north African music, then introduced into his own compositions, and which from there became a resource from which most contemporary composers have profited. It is surprising Chisholm - often known as the 'Scottish Bartok' - is the only composer to have treated the piobaireachd tradition with similar respect and thoroughness. His  unique and highly virtuosic collection of piano pieces known simply as 'Piobaireachd,' which show him exploring the original pieces in explosively dramatic and inventive ways, should be much better known

I love the story, by the way, of Bartok visiting Chisholm whilst on tour in Glasgow,  and spending a fascinating night being introduced to piobaireachd before trotting back to his hotel in the early hours with gift of a bagpipe chanter under his arm...

Wasn't Chisholm referred to sometimes as 'Macbartok'!

[Luke]

Yes! I love this picture of him greetng the great man at the train station in Glasgow

[Roasted Swan]

Yes! I love this picture of him greetng the great man at the train station in Glasgow

hat-wearing is a lost Art......

[relm1]

"Ossian" and the "Two Dante Pictures" on Dutton are great as well (they've probably been deleted by now, since Dutton doesn't seem to much care to keep their legacy in print). Chisholm is serious stuff which deserves to remain in the catalogue.

Alexander Mackenzie's "Pibroch" is lovely (Hyperion CDH55343), as you might expect...



 

Oh, he's the composer of the Two Dante Pictures?  I love that work and have the CD somewhere.  Will definitely look forward to hearing this album maybe tonight.

[Albion]

Oh, he's the composer of the Two Dante Pictures?  I love that work and have the CD somewhere.  Will definitely look forward to hearing this album maybe tonight.

I've now lost all control of my CDs and rely on serendipity. The Eric Fogg "Sea Sheen" and "Merok" on the same disc are also worthwhile. Pity he chucked himself under a train...

[vandermolen]

I've now lost all control of my CDs and rely on serendipity. The Eric Fogg "Sea Sheen" and "Merok" on the same disc are also worthwhile. Pity he chucked himself under a train...

...on his way to his second wedding.

[vandermolen]

Oh, he's the composer of the Two Dante Pictures?  I love that work and have the CD somewhere.  Will definitely look forward to hearing this album maybe tonight.

+1 for the Dante Pictures - I love that work too.

[Irons]

...on his way to his second wedding.

An extreme reaction to having second thoughts!

[vandermolen]

Yes! I love this picture of him greetng the great man at the train station in Glasgow

Great photo!

[Roasted Swan]

I've now lost all control of my CDs and rely on serendipity. The Eric Fogg "Sea Sheen" and "Merok" on the same disc are also worthwhile. Pity he chucked himself under a train...

I went to a concert some years ago where they played Eric Fogg's "The Seasons".  This was the piece that was premiered in the same concert at the Leeds Festival as Walton's Belshazzar's Feast which of course rather blew the Fogg away (pun intended....).  I think this is a case of a perfectly good composer being marginalised by a great one.  I have no issue with very good composers and works being "2nd Tier" - I possibly enjoy more of that music than pieces or composers considered "great".  But we as a society place such importance on primacy that to be acclaimed as anything except the BEST is deemed failure.  Yet we are all aware that everything in life has a hierarchy.  I'm not saying Fogg killed himself because he wasn't the "best composer ever" but I imagine the Leeds experience would be chastening for anyone.

[Luke]

An extreme reaction to having second thoughts!

He got cold feet. And then the rest of him, too.

[Albion]

I went to a concert some years ago where they played Eric Fogg's "The Seasons".  This was the piece that was premiered in the same concert at the Leeds Festival as Walton's Belshazzar's Feast which of course rather blew the Fogg away (pun intended....).  I think this is a case of a perfectly good composer being marginalised by a great one.  I have no issue with very good composers and works being "2nd Tier" - I possibly enjoy more of that music than pieces or composers considered "great".  But we as a society place such importance on primacy that to be acclaimed as anything except the BEST is deemed failure.  Yet we are all aware that everything in life has a hierarchy.  I'm not saying Fogg killed himself because he wasn't the "best composer ever" but I imagine the Leeds experience would be chastening for anyone.

Service with a smile...

The Seasons (1931) [orchestral score reconstructed by David Ellis]
Leeds Festival Chorus/ BBC PO/ Simon Wright (25/3/2006)

https://www.mediafire.com/file/2byuvsejq693zg9/Fogg_-_The_Seasons_%25281931%2529.mp3/file

https://www.mediafire.com/file/md66jtyahogirlt/Fogg_-_The_Seasons_%2528text%2529.doc/file

[Luke]

I look forward to this when I get home tonight - thank you!

[Albion]

I look forward to this when I get home tonight - thank you!

You are most welcome! Have you got my catalogue of broadcasts? The Eric Fogg is VERY pleasant listening but "it won't set the world on fire", nor should it be expected to. I abhor the hegemony which has been constructed for British music and mindlessly repeated, i.e. Elgar-Vaughan Williams-Holst-Walton-Britten, since it blatently ignores virtually the whole of the nineteenth century, most of the twentieth and everything else that came before and after. Potter, Macfarren, Bennett, Sullivan, Mackenzie, Parry, Goring Thomas, Cowen, Stanford, Smyth, Walford Davies, Bantock, Coleridge-Taylor, Hurlstone, Boughton, Holbrooke, Bax, Bliss, Howells, Alwyn, Bate, Arnell, Arnold, etc. There is no musical heritage so rich and so bloody neglected by concert promoters...

 

[Roasted Swan]

Service with a smile...

The Seasons (1931) [orchestral score reconstructed by David Ellis]
Leeds Festival Chorus/ BBC PO/ Simon Wright (25/3/2006)

https://www.mediafire.com/file/2byuvsejq693zg9/Fogg_-_The_Seasons_%25281931%2529.mp3/file

https://www.mediafire.com/file/md66jtyahogirlt/Fogg_-_The_Seasons_%2528text%2529.doc/file

Thankyou for that - my memory of the concert which I see must have been the premiere of the reconstruction back around 2006 is that the Fogg was perfectly good but not exactly remarkable so perhaps this broadcasrt performance will let me reassess that...... thanks again