The British Composers Thread

Started by Mark, October 25, 2007, 12:26:56 PM

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Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: vandermolen on August 03, 2020, 02:27:16 AM
That's uncanny PD. Mine looks just like that, but in several locations around the house, the garage and the garden shed.  ;D
The garage and the garden shed too?!!   ???

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

Irons

#661
Quote from: Biffo on August 03, 2020, 01:12:49 AM
Richard Arnell - Dagenham Symphony - this has to be a commission unless Dagenham is Arnell's home town and he has a special affection for it.

How could anyone have affection for Dagenham ? Awful place, I used to drive though it on way to the Boleyn.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

Biffo

Quote from: Irons on August 03, 2020, 07:15:49 AM
How could anyone have affection for Dagenham ? Awful place, I used to drive though it on way to the Boleyn.

Usually, people have an affection for their home town no matter how awful. In the late 1970s I briefly lived in Harlesden, a particularly grim inner London suburb. A survey claimed that over 60% of the population wished they lived somewhere else; this was unique for London and many neighbourhoods were (still are) pretty grim.

I only visited Dagenham twice, in the mid-70s, the paint company I worked for had a manufacturing site there. The overall impression was pretty awful. For many years its main claim to fame was the giant Ford car plant. Though there was also the Dagenham Girl's Pipe Band.

Irons

Quote from: Biffo on August 03, 2020, 07:53:07 AM
Usually, people have an affection for their home town no matter how awful. In the late 1970s I briefly lived in Harlesden, a particularly grim inner London suburb. A survey claimed that over 60% of the population wished they lived somewhere else; this was unique for London and many neighbourhoods were (still are) pretty grim.

I only visited Dagenham twice, in the mid-70s, the paint company I worked for had a manufacturing site there. The overall impression was pretty awful. For many years its main claim to fame was the giant Ford car plant. Though there was also the Dagenham Girl's Pipe Band.

I am from the East End. Dagenham if anything has got worse since your visit, admittedly I am only driving through on the A13. The road rises and the Ford plant is situated either side looking down. For some reason I find it one of the most depressing sights in London. Pleased to reach Newham which is saying something!
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

vandermolen

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 03, 2020, 02:48:18 AM
The garage and the garden shed too?!!   ???

PD

Indeed, although the 'garden shed' is actually now my swish 'Man cave'  8)
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

vandermolen

#665
Currently enjoying the swashbuckling, baxian 'Sea Venturers' (1934) by Frederic Austin (1872-1952). It also reminds me of Philip Sainton's 'The Island' which I also like very much.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

calyptorhynchus

What a list of regional/place inspired music!  :)
Pity almost none of it will be recorded  :(
'Many men are melancholy by hearing music, but it is a pleasing melancholy that it causeth.' Robert Burton

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: vandermolen on August 03, 2020, 11:09:26 AM
Indeed, although the 'garden shed' is actually now my swish 'Man cave'  8)
lol And here I was thinking of mold and dirt issues (in possibly both places...thinking of UK weather).  Would love to see what your man cave looks like.  And do you do any gardening projects there....or no longer?  :)

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 03, 2020, 01:02:43 PM
What a list of regional/place inspired music!  :)
Pity almost none of it will be recorded  :(
Aren't there at least several recordings from most of those pieces listed at least?   :(

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

vandermolen

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 03, 2020, 02:28:54 PM
lol And here I was thinking of mold and dirt issues (in possibly both places...thinking of UK weather).  Would love to see what your man cave looks like.  And do you do any gardening projects there....or no longer?  :)

PD
OT

As I've now learnt how to send my photos to email (only took several years  ::)) I'll see what I can do. The garden is very nice but that is all my wife's work, much as I'd like to take credit for it. However, I need to cut the grass before I take a photo of it.  ;D
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

vandermolen

Quote from: Irons on August 02, 2020, 01:15:37 PM
Got around to listening Bate's 4th Symphony. Obviously cannot be judged on a single work but my impression is of a composer bursting with ideas but maybe lacking discipline. Never dull, the work flies by, a most enjoyable and eventful ride and I need to listen again to see if all the dots join up as a symphony. I'm sure they do.
Simon Heffer presented on BBC radio "The Lonely Death of Stanley Bate" highly recommended and can be heard here https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000dxyq
What is it with 20th Century British composers and booze?   


I listened to the Bate programme with great interest and thank you for posting it Lol. Evidently a very troubled life but what a fine composer he was. I enjoyed hearing a couple of his songs on the programme. Hopefully we will get a recording of Symphony No.2 one day. For me his masterpiece is not the Viola Concerto, fine as that is, but the Third Symphony which I think is a more original work. The Viola Concerto is quite derivative of VW, not that that is a bad thing and it is a very beautiful work. Furthermore, for all its great beauty, VW's music has an oddly impersonal quality whereas Bate's music, like that of Patrick Hadley in 'The Trees So High', is more personal I think. Clearly it didn't do Bate's career much good to clear off to Australia and then America in 1940; mind you Britten did much the same thing and it didn't do his career much harm in the end.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Irons

#671
Quote from: vandermolen on August 04, 2020, 01:23:38 PM
I listened to the Bate programme with great interest and thank you for posting it Lol. Evidently a very troubled life but what a fine composer he was. I enjoyed hearing a couple of his songs on the programme. Hopefully we will get a recording of Symphony No.2 one day. For me his masterpiece is not the Viola Concerto, fine as that is, but the Third Symphony which I think is a more original work. The Viola Concerto is quite derivative of VW, not that that is a bad thing and it is a very beautiful work. Furthermore, for all its great beauty, VW's music has an oddly impersonal quality whereas Bate's music, like that of Patrick Hadley in 'The Trees So High', is more personal I think. Clearly it didn't do Bate's career much good to clear off to Australia and then America in 1940; mind you Britten did much the same thing and it didn't do his career much harm in the end.

Pleased you listened to the broadcast, Jeffrey. I find Bate an intriguing figure, doubly so after listening to the programme. That he was his own worst enemy goes without saying but that doesn't explain how close it became for him to be completely forgotten. Until you mentioned him on the forum I am convinced I have not previously heard his name. I looked him up in Howes' book of which many obscure British composers are noted - not a sausage! You mention Britten, there are many parallels between the two including homosexuality, Bate married (twice) and Britten didn't. It is hard to imagine in these more enlightened times how shattering it must have been to be gay in 1950's Britain. His talent was recognised during his lifetime but all the bad stuff got in the way and perhaps he was just plain unlucky with his career.

I'm expecting delivery of the 3rd Symphony CD today or tomorrow and looking forward to hearing it. I expect to order the Viola Concerto in the near future but be careful not to play it in the car! ;)   
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

vandermolen

#672
Quote from: Irons on August 04, 2020, 11:55:28 PM
Pleased you listened to the broadcast, Jeffrey. I find Bate an intriguing figure, doubly so after listening to the programme. That he was his own worst enemy goes without saying but that doesn't explain how close it became for him to be completely forgotten. Until you mentioned him on the forum I am convinced I have not previously heard his name. I looked him up in Howes' book of which many obscure British composers are noted - not a sausage! You mention Britten, there are many parallels between the two including homosexuality, Bate married (twice) and Britten didn't. It is hard to imagine in these more enlightened times how shattering it must have been to be gay in 1950's Britain. His talent was recognised during his lifetime but all the bad stuff got in the way and perhaps he was just plain unlucky with his career.

I'm expecting delivery of the 3rd Symphony CD today or tomorrow and looking forward to hearing it. I expect to order the Viola Concerto in the near future but be careful not to play it in the car! ;)
Haha, yes,you don't want to end up in a ditch Lol! Yes, his life was very sad. For decades I was aware of 'Stanley Bate's 3rd Symphony as a legendary work without ever having the opportunity to hear it. Excellent news about the imminent arrival of the Bate CD. It is an absolutely wonderful disc, not just for the Bate symphony (which I played over and over again when I first received it) but for the other works as well and especially the doom-laden and ultimately poetic 'Pictures from Dante' by Erik Chisholm - what a work! I really look forward to hearing your views on it in due course. Ok, your next Dutton purchases should be Richard Arnell's symphonies 3, 4 and 5 (4 and 5 are on the same disc)  ;D

PS in the Fifth Symphony, Arnell quotes a song 'Dear Old Pals, Jolly Old Pals' which his father liked to sing - I find that moment in the symphony very moving indeed. As someone here once said it makes you want to jump out of your seat and start applauding!
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Biffo

Quote from: vandermolen on August 05, 2020, 01:34:45 AM
Haha, yes,you don't want to end up in a ditch Lol! Yes, his life was very sad. For decades I was aware of 'Stanley Bate's 3rd Symphony as a legendary work without ever having the opportunity to hear it. Excellent news about the imminent arrival of the Bate CD. It is an absolutely wonderful disc, not just for the Bate symphony (which I played over and over again when I first received it) but for the other works as well and especially the doom-laden and ultimately poetic 'Pictures from Dante' by Erik Chisholm - what a work! I really look forward to hearing your views on it in due course. Ok, your next Dutton purchases should be Richard Arnell's symphonies 3, 4 and 5 (4 and 5 are on the same disc)  ;D

PS in the Fifth Symphony, Arnell quotes a song 'Dear Old Pals, Jolly Old Pals' which his father liked to sing - I find that moment in the symphony very moving indeed. As someone here once said it makes you want to jump out of your seat and start applauding!

It is heartening in a vague sort of way that people are exploring and enjoying these neglected composers but I can't always share the enthusiasm. I have purchased various discs from Dutton, usually as part of special offers. I enjoyed Bate's Viola Concerto but didn't follow it up, perhaps I might try the 3rd Symphony. Arnell's 3rd Symphony I found deadly dull and didn't even make it to the end, likewise the 'Odysseus' Symphony of Cecil Armstrong Gibbs.

I expect I will try more Dutton rarities but there is so much other music competing for my attention (and cash!).

Irons

Quote from: Biffo on August 05, 2020, 02:19:16 AM
It is heartening in a vague sort of way that people are exploring and enjoying these neglected composers but I can't always share the enthusiasm. I have purchased various discs from Dutton, usually as part of special offers. I enjoyed Bate's Viola Concerto but didn't follow it up, perhaps I might try the 3rd Symphony. Arnell's 3rd Symphony I found deadly dull and didn't even make it to the end, likewise the 'Odysseus' Symphony of Cecil Armstrong Gibbs.

I expect I will try more Dutton rarities but there is so much other music competing for my attention (and cash!).

The wheat needs to be separated from the chaff of English music and as you infer this can be expensive. Try buying vinyl! The mortality rate due to a whole list of reasons is far higher then CD purchases. I have been lucky with Dutton, out of ten on my shelves - three outstanding and only one thumbs down. I have blind spots including Rutland Boughton and John Foulds but neither are on Dutton. I am well aware there are a host of recordings on Dutton not worth paying full price, both Arnell CDs cost less then £3 so well worth taking a chance.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

vandermolen

Quote from: Biffo on August 05, 2020, 02:19:16 AM
It is heartening in a vague sort of way that people are exploring and enjoying these neglected composers but I can't always share the enthusiasm. I have purchased various discs from Dutton, usually as part of special offers. I enjoyed Bate's Viola Concerto but didn't follow it up, perhaps I might try the 3rd Symphony. Arnell's 3rd Symphony I found deadly dull and didn't even make it to the end, likewise the 'Odysseus' Symphony of Cecil Armstrong Gibbs.

I expect I will try more Dutton rarities but there is so much other music competing for my attention (and cash!).
I agree with you that the 'Odysseus Symphony' of Armstrong Gibbs was a big let-down, especially as I had like the two symphonies released on Marco Polo. The one in memory of his son, killed in WW2 ''Westmorland' was very moving. Arnell's No.3 and 5 made a big hit with me however.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

vandermolen

Quote from: Irons on August 05, 2020, 06:06:11 AM
The wheat needs to be separated from the chaff of English music and as you infer this can be expensive. Try buying vinyl! The mortality rate due to a whole list of reasons is far higher then CD purchases. I have been lucky with Dutton, out of ten on my shelves - three outstanding and only one thumbs down. I have blind spots including Rutland Boughton and John Foulds but neither are on Dutton. I am well aware there are a host of recordings on Dutton not worth paying full price, both Arnell CDs cost less then £3 so well worth taking a chance.
I liked 'The Immortal Hour' but nothing else by Rutland Boughton, York Bowen is even worse in my books. Foulds I like, however, not some of the lighter works released on Dutton but the 'heavier' works released on Lyrita and Warner plus the World Requiem which I had the privilege to see live.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Irons

Quote from: vandermolen on August 05, 2020, 06:46:20 AM
I liked 'The Immortal Hour' but nothing else by Rutland Boughton, York Bowen is even worse in my books. Foulds I like, however, not some of the lighter works released on Dutton but the 'heavier' works released on Lyrita and Warner plus the World Requiem which I had the privilege to see live.

Boughton's 3rd Symphony is one of the most boring works I have heard for a long time. John Foulds is odd but for me not in a good way. A "light" composer who comes up with "Dynanic Triptych".
Bate 3 has arrived. Reading the booklet notes Jeffrey the other works look interesting too as you say.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

vandermolen

Quote from: Irons on August 05, 2020, 07:38:42 AM
Boughton's 3rd Symphony is one of the most boring works I have heard for a long time. John Foulds is odd but for me not in a good way. A "light" composer who comes up with "Dynanic Triptych".
Bate 3 has arrived. Reading the booklet notes Jeffrey the other works look interesting too as you say.
'Pictures from Dante' is terrific Lol. Yes I was bored by RB's 3rd Symphony as well, although it is not as dreary as his 'Oliver Cromwell' Symphony. However, I rather liked the Oboe Concerto written for his daughter to play, on the same CD as the Third Symphony.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Roy Bland

#679
Quote from: vandermolen on August 05, 2020, 06:46:20 AM
I liked 'The Immortal Hour' but nothing else by Rutland Boughton, York Bowen is even worse in my books. Foulds I like, however, not some of the lighter works released on Dutton but the 'heavier' works released on Lyrita and Warner plus the World Requiem which I had the privilege to see live.
IMHO this is a good disc ,symphonies 2-3 are better than first (devoted to Cromwell too long and rhetoric ) .
https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/114656997?iid=303132533566