Renata Tebaldi

[wagnernn]

Here,let discuss about Renata Tebaldi
She is my most favourite non-Wagnerian soprano.The first time I listened to her was in Verdi 's Otello.I love the aria "Ave maria" with her wonderful voice and I think it is better than the one with Caballe or other sopranos.
I don't know exactly what Toscanini thought about her voice,but I agree with the phrase "voice of an angel" as he once said.When I listened to her singing "Donde lieta usci",it brang tears to my eyes because of the perfect beauty of voice with strong emotions.What a great Mimi! Then ,I try to find some records of Verismo with her and they never make me disappointed.
I bought  the CDs "Don Carlo" of Verdi with Tebaldi,Bergonzi and Solti 3 days ago.
http://www.amazon.fr/Don-Carlo-Giuseppe-Verdi/dp/B00000E3OE
The aria "Tu che la vanita" really made me surprised.Both of Callas and Caballe sang this aria very well,but non of them had touched the high peak of quality and emotions like Tebaldi.
What do you think about it?

[zamyrabyrd]

When she was good, she was excellent. I didn't hear her in less-than-optimum attempts at coloratura but maybe lyric sopranos considered back then (some of them at least) that roulades were for higher and lighter voices. A collection of Renata Tebaldi arias shows time after time that it is possible to get the expression THROUGH the music (Bel Canto) and not by superimpositions of essentially non-musical but dramatic means. The latter comes from a more verismo approach as evidenced as early on in the interpretations of Mary Garden, Claudia Muzio and ultimately Maria Callas.

ZB

[Tsaraslondon]

When she was good, she was excellent. I didn't hear her in less-than-optimum attempts at coloratura but maybe lyric sopranos considered back then (some of them at least) that roulades were for higher and lighter voices. A collection of Renata Tebaldi arias shows time after time that it is possible to get the expression THROUGH the music (Bel Canto) and not by superimpositions of essentially non-musical but dramatic means. The latter comes from a more verismo approach as evidenced as early on in the interpretations of Mary Garden, Claudia Muzio and ultimately Maria Callas.

ZB

I totally disagree with you about Callas using a veristic approach a la Muzio or Garden. The miracle of Callas is that she always achieved her effects economically and through the music and not through extraneous expression. Why, even in Puccini, if you compare the Toscas of Callas and Tebaldi, it is to find the latter making dramatic points by using extraneous sounds such as sobs, whereas Callas achieves her effects by sticking to the letter of the score. It is a wonder that she could sing with such intensity while never disturbing her immaculate legato or breaking the musical line. This is also true of a role like Santuzza in Cavalleria Rusticana, which is often over sung by sopranos and mezzos. I listened to it only the other day and was struck again at how simply and subtly she makes her effects. The chest voice is used only occasionally, and only when the score seems to ask for it. At the end of the duet with Alfio, for instance, she does not go for the easy effectiveness of chest voice at the words rapiva a me, but affectingly, as instructed in the score, finishes on an unbearably touching piano. Throughout her career, and especially in her Juilliard Master Classes, she stressed the importance of a bel canto approach, her training being rooted in the music of the early nineteenth century. She was in some ways a throwback to those singers of yore (descriptions of the voice and style of Giuditta Pasta, the creator of Norma and Anna Bolena, are uncannily  similar to descriptions of Callas), whereas Tebaldi was a much more modern singer, whose voice and style were better suited to late Verdi and verismo.

Please don't think I am Tebaldi bashing. Hers was undoubtedly one of the most important voices of the 20th century. In certain roles, those that suited her like the Forza Leonora, Aida, Desdemona, Maddalena and Adrianna Lecouvreur she has (vocally) rarely been equalled, let alone surpassed. But if Callas has been granted the palm as to the most important soprano of the post war generation, it is because of her greater range (from Gluck and Cherubini to Puccini), her ability to assimilate her style to the very different requirements of those various composers, and because of her influence on opera in general and the repertoire. Indeed Jon Vickers once stated that the two most influential operatic figures of the post war period were Wieland Wagner and Maria Callas.

[zamyrabyrd]

Hi Tsaras,

I have been a bit out of the loop here but rediscovered this thread and saw you responded.
I didn't say that Callas' approach was not Bel Canto and totally verismo. She was probably the late great and perhaps not to be repeated exponent of that great art of beautiful singing, especially in her early years when she was singing on the breath and not pushing it, especially on the high notes.
However, I was thinking of specific roles and recordings and comparing them to Tebaldi or Caballe whose mutual approach is very similar in my opinion.

There is at least one Callas recording of the last aria of Sonnambula that really oversteps the boundary, or the frame of art and enters real life as it were.  And then there is Macbeth of which the arias are real voice destroyers if NOT done in a non-detached manner-- in other words letting the music carry the expression rather than straining one's voice by shouting out the notes in the throes of passion. Of course, that is why she was great--total commitment. But that white heat intensity most probably caused early burnout. (This may be despite the fact that Verdi said himself that Lady Macbeth should have an "ugly" voice!)

It all goes back to mixing up the boundaries between life and art. The Swans in Tschaikovsky's ballet are stylized versions according to that particular vocabulary of dance, and not real or pretend to be.  I do believe that the conventions of Bel Canto as much as they offer ALMOST unlimited possibilities for expression, they are still limited and do not, as far as I know, employ non-musical devices. In Opera, no one would say that acting and the rest of the baggage are not important but in general, at least traditionally, the bottom line is good singing. And that is not supposed to be done in a way that ultimately harms the instrument that is producing it, in other words, carrying the seeds of its own destruction.

Tebaldi as far as I know had her voice until the end and Caballe still does.

ZB

[wagnernn]

I really like the aria Casta diva with Renata Tebaldi (and of course,Callas also sang a wonderful one).They are my two favorite records of this opera.What do you think about Tebaldi-Norma?

[Tsaraslondon]

I really like the aria Casta diva with Renata Tebaldi (and of course,Callas also sang a wonderful one).They are my two favorite records of this opera.What do you think about Tebaldi-Norma?

Tebaldi never sang Norma. I doubt she'd have had the technique anyway. Walter Legge did once have the idea of getting Callas and Tebaldi to do the opera together, alternating in the roles of Norma and Adalgisa, but Tebaldi flatly refused, perhaps realising that it was not her fach.

I had no idea she'd recorded Casta Diva. Florid writing of the early nineteenth century was not really her metier, and I can't imagine it improving on versions by Ponselle, Sutherland, Caballe or indeed Callas herself.

[Tsaraslondon]

I really like the aria Casta diva with Renata Tebaldi (and of course,Callas also sang a wonderful one).They are my two favorite records of this opera.What do you think about Tebaldi-Norma?

To add to my above post. I've just found the aria on Youtube and, as I suspected, it's not good. I believe Tebaldi did not authorise this for release, and you can hear why. Though the voice is still unquestionably beautiful in the middle register, where is the floating legato required in this aria? She has no trill and the coloratura is sketchy. She omits the legato chromatic scale at the end (this a Callas speciality) and top notes are hurled out rather than being bound into the whole. Callas is infinitely preferable. Even better in this aria, though not in the whole role, is Caballe, especially in a live performance from Orange, with Jon Vickers, no less, as Pollione, mercifully preserved on DVD.

[Lilas Pastia]

Tebaldi's glory was her full, creamy mid-range and full, coppery high range (which stopped at high C if I'm not mistaken). She didn't have much of a lower range to speak of, often resorting to stock chest tone vocal gestures. De Los Angeles had infinitely more charm ( a smile in the voice), but Tebaldi had a built-in layer of pathos and dignity in her intepretive armoury that very well suited her particular vocal makeup.

She was a tasteful and intelligent artist, but her overly cautious  carreer management eventually proved to be counterproductive. Even in her twenties she sounded and behaved like 'aunt Renata'. She soon was cornered into the same roles over and over again and I suspect that even she, would have relished more adventurous challenges. That can be hinted at in her late Gioconda recording. Had she been intelligently coached and had she had a less placid temperament, she would have gone on to learn Sieglinde, Eva and Elisabeth, and most wagnerian sopranos would have cowered for shelter. She had the vocal makeup of Gré Brouwenstijn or Martha Mödl, but only half of these ladies' temperement and dramatic instinct.

Still, she is an incontournable of last century's vocal legends.

[wagnernn]

And how about Tebaldi in La boheme ?.Both ''Si, mi chiamano Mimi'' and "donde  lieta usci'' are perfect,when the Callas 's one are less emotional despite of the good vocal technique?

[Lilas Pastia]

Mimi was one of Tebaldi's best roles. Although she sounds too healthy to die of pulmonary disease....

[Tsaraslondon]

And how about Tebaldi in La boheme ?.Both ''Si, mi chiamano Mimi'' and "donde  lieta usci'' are perfect,when the Callas 's one are less emotional despite of the good vocal technique?

Mimi was definitely one of Tebaldi's greatest roles, but Lilas Pastia definitely has a point. Though her Mimi has been widely praised, and some still place the recording with Bergonzi and Serafin as the very best available, I too find her singing a little too healthy in the wrong sense. As singing, it is absolutely beautiful of course, but, to my mind, she never gets to grips with the character the way that De Los Angeles, Freni and Callas (in a surprising role for her) do. I also remember Cotrubas being very affecting in a video of a performance from Covent Garden.

[wagnernn]

To Tsaraslondon:
Both of Freni and De Los Angeles are no doubt two legendary sopranos in this role.Besides,I find the record with Maria Callas unsuitable with her voice because it 's too hard for a innocent and sweet girl as Mimi.(but I really enjoy her voice in many dramatic roles such as Lady Macbeth,Turandot and Aida)
I usually think that Tebaldi and Freni are the same in many lyrical roles (for example,Desdemona in Verdi's Otello) ; so in the role of Mimi,Tebaldi may surpass Callas!

[Tsaraslondon]

To Tsaraslondon:
Both of Freni and De Los Angeles are no doubt two legendary sopranos in this role.Besides,I find the record with Maria Callas unsuitable with her voice because it 's too hard for a innocent and sweet girl as Mimi.(but I really enjoy her voice in many dramatic roles such as Lady Macbeth,Turandot and Aida)
I usually think that Tebaldi and Freni are the same in many lyrical roles (for example,Desdemona in Verdi's Otello) ; so in the role of Mimi,Tebaldi may surpass Callas!

Many would agree with you. Of course it depends on what you want from the role, but have you actually listened to the complete recording of La Boheme with Callas? The miracle is how  marvelously well she lightens her voice for the role. If one didn't know who she was, it would be hard to believe that she could also be the prefect interpreter of such roles as Medea, Norma and Lady Macbeth. Not only that, but when she does darken the voice for moments of tragedy, for instance in Act 3 and Act 4, it remains the voice of Mimi; not for once does the voice of Lady Macbeth or Norma obtrude. Callas always had this unique ability to completely inhabit the role she was singing, even when, as here, she had never sung the role on stage; particularly important when, on a record, one doesn't have the benefit of costume and make up to help the imagination. So, oddly, it is Callas who presents the more fragilely poetic heroine, though, of course, Tebaldi's singing is quite beautiful, and easily satisfies on a purely visceral level. However it is this fragility which I find lacking in Tebaldi, but do find in the portrayals of De Los Angeles, Freni and Cotrubas.

[wagnernn]

Tsaraslondon,who do you think the greatest Leonora in La forza...(your Callas,my Tebaldi, and Ponselle, Verret, Nilsson, Caballe, Price,De Los Angeles,Freni....)?

[Tsaraslondon]

Tsaraslondon,who do you think the greatest Leonora in La forza...(your Callas,my Tebaldi, and Ponselle, Verret, Nilsson, Caballe, Price,De Los Angeles,Freni....)?

I'm pretty sure De Los Angeles never sang the role. Verrett may have done, I suppose, after she became a soprano, but again I haven't heard her in the role. Ditto Caballe. Ponselle only recorded excerpts, all of which are superb, particularly her floating legato line in La vergine degli angeli.

Of the others Freni, a singer I like normally, sings intelligently, whilst never disguising the fact that the role is a few notches too big for her. The other three (Leontyne Price, Tebaldi and Callas) all have something personal and inimitable to bring to the role and I'd find it hard to name an outright winner. Purely as singing, Tebaldi (I'm thinking here of a live film of her singing the role with Corelli) is outstanding, surpassing even Price. Callas, as usual, though not as secure s her rivals on high, brings her own musical stamp to the role. Apart from at the very top of the range, her voice is in good condition and remarkably responsive, and in fact in the first aria (Me pelegrina ed orfana), she surpasses the work of her colleagues, singing it with an accuracy outside their reach. Of course there are places, (la vergine degli angeli and the ppp B in alt at the end of Pace, pace, mio Dio, to name but two) where Price and Tebaldi would be preferable. All of them are worth hearing.

[zamyrabyrd]

To Tsaraslondon:
Both of Freni and De Los Angeles are no doubt two legendary sopranos in this role.Besides,I find the record with Maria Callas unsuitable with her voice because it 's too hard for a innocent and sweet girl as Mimi.

Try Albanese (as sweet as it gets) and Gigli (1935?). I like Callas' recording VERY MUCH, with Moffo as a lively, high pitched Musetta.

ZB

[Anne]

"la vergine degli angeli and the . . . Pace, pace, mio Dio"

Everyone is going to disagree with me but my favorite singer is the one whom I first heard in this role.  That was Sharon Sweet on a Metropolitan Opera telecast.  Everyone (except myself) thought her singing was atrocious!

At the time I knew very little about singing (don't know much now either) but there was a quality to her voice that was so beautiful when she sang that music.  For me no one else has ever done it better and all because of her unique voice.  Eventually she improved the technical aspects of her singing and other people finally liked her.

[Lilas Pastia]

In Forza I prefer Callas to all others. Leonora is a wretched woman, what with her father murdered by her lover, and having to flee to escape her avenging brother. Tebaldi sounds sad in an elegant way, Price is a proud and dignified Donna Leonora di Vargas , but only Callas makes you feel the anguish and unbearable tension she is living in.

She is in parlous voice on the high note at "invan la pace" (in the last act aria), but she hurls the curse (MalediDZIONE ! MalediDZIONE !! MA-LE-DI-DZIOOOONE !!!) in a truly frightening way.  She makes all others seem only mildly worried. I haven't heard Caballé in the role. She did sing it, and the La Scala 1978 performance is available both as an audio only or filmed document (Carreras, Cappuccilli, Ghiaurov). She recorded Pace, Pace on disc but it's nothing special. Definitely of the 'mildly worried' kind. Her imprecation is just a loud, generalized AAAAAJHHH! after a couple of feeble 'malezione' - she can't even pronounce it properly.

One singer I would have loved to hear in the role is Vishnevskaya.

[wagnernn]

I prefer Tebaldi to Callas in both of La forza... and Don Carlo (These 2 operas are in a same type,aren't they?)
In Aida ,the strong voice of Callas is also less emotional than the beautiful voice of Tebaldi.

[knight66]

I prefer Tebaldi to Callas in both of La forza... and Don Carlo (These 2 operas are in a same type,aren't they?)
In Aida ,the strong voice of Callas is also less emotional than the beautiful voice of Tebaldi.

Now, that's fighting talk that is! It is a debate that must revolve around how different brains process sound. I find Tebaldi, once past her early fresh and expressive phase, to be comparatively bland as against Callas. But others find expression in Tebaldi's warm tones that pass me by and instead find fault in Callas. So that debate will go on and it is interesting that it now happens between people who cannot have seen these singers live and in their prime. These very disagreements were hot when those singers were in the opera house.

So, whatever qualities they projected live still shine through for their current audio only admirers.

I have some very early recordings that Tebaldi made and I was very surprised by them. She was taking more trouble to be expressive, but it sounded natural. For some reason, she seemed to me to loose the detail of the characterisation in her years of fame. I have found her to be rather bland. But, perhaps had Callas not come along, with her hyper-expresivity, our judgements might be different.

Mike