Bruckner good, Mahler boring?

[max]

I just finished reading the last three pages of this thread, and it strikes me that Elgar has been dumped on extensively for at least the past month.  That's not reasonable.  One last thing - I'm very confident that Elgar would not utter the stupid comments coming from 71 dB.

Concerning Dittersdorf, I don't think his music is "no good"; it's just not very good.

It's very good! It's just not great.

Regarding Elgar...even though he would never put himself on the level of the giants that 71db puts him on the really stupid comments come from people who make him out as being 2 notches left of worthless.

Elgar works speak for themselves, not that I like them all, they still remain the output of a considerable genius. The Germans realized it before the English did which makes me wonder what the opinion of Elgar would be if he would have been a German composer and not an English one who were prolific in producing great writers but NOT great composers!

[max]

Could you describe this brainwashing process, please? How does one know one has been brainwashed, or has escaped brainwashing?

Oh God! I wish you wouldn't have asked!

But, break my heart, for I must hold my tongue!

[Larry Rinkel]

Oh God! I wish you wouldn't have asked!

But, break my heart, for I must hold my tongue!

Oh God yerself, Hamlet. Go for it.

[Lethevich]

I feel your pain, dude, and I agree with you. Elgar was a damn fine composer who wrote as many, if not more, masterworks than Bruckner. Let's count: the two symphonies, Falstaff, Enigma, the Cello Concerto, the Violin Concerto, the Piano Quintet, the String Quartet, the Violin Sonata, Gerontius, the Apostles, Sea Pictures, In the South, Cockaigne, the Serenade for Strings, Introduction and Allegro.

I'm glad someone had the guts to say that, the sad croneyism of the "internet badasses" was making me feel ill.

[max]

Oh God yerself, Hamlet. Go for it.

...isn't it already clear!

[Larry Rinkel]

...isn't it already clear!

Too easy, Max. Speak your mind, or forever hold your peace.

[max]

Too easy, Max. Speak your mind, or forever hold your peace.

Ok! I believe in peace, with the odd frictions interspersed as the Be all and end all of Human Destiny!

[Bonehelm]

I think the one who got brainwashed is 71dB himself, thinking such a minor and unimportant composer as a giant like Bruckner or Mahler.

Whatever though, you can keep listening to that Elgar junk all you want, you don't know what you're missing.

And don't throw that back at me, I have listened and learned to appreciate Elgar too. It was only a failure.

[karlhenning]

Damn it's frustrating to promote Elgar... 

Perhaps your frustration is a result of this ridiculous idea of yours, that a thread comparing Bruckner and Mahler, is somehow yet another forum for you to shout to the world what a great composer you think Elgar is?

You'd be due more sympathy, Poju, perhaps, if your gibberish did not make for your own frustration.

[karlhenning]

I think the one who got brainwashed is 71dB himself

It may well be true, since it doesn't matter what the actual topic is, his brain just splorches Elgarmania.

[Larry Rinkel]

Ok! I believe in peace, with the odd frictions interspersed as the Be all and end all of Human Destiny!

I'm so glad we cleared that up, and so candidly.

[Renfield]

I think the one who got brainwashed is 71dB himself, thinking such a minor and unimportant composer as a giant like Bruckner or Mahler.

Whatever though, you can keep listening to that Elgar junk all you want, you don't know what you're missing.

And don't throw that back at me, I have listened and learned to appreciate Elgar too. It was only a failure.

You're still giving 71db a true challenge in the field of solid argumentation, I really must say.

But anyhow, I shouldn't talk: I'm the chipmunk-simple person who finds Elgar's music touching, and not at all bland. I also love Mahler, and Bruckner fascinates me to no end!

What a happy life I lead...

[jochanaan]

I think people with musical education can't think "out of the box". I can because I am self-educated in music...

On the contrary, it's almost necessary to be educated about the box before one can think outside of it.  But then, I'm not self-educated--yet I like to think that I think for myself.

Education, at its best, does not teach you what to think, but how.

[Larry Rinkel]

On the contrary, it's almost necessary to be educated about the box before one can think outside of it.  But then, I'm not self-educated--yet I like to think that I think for myself.

Education, at its best, does not teach you what to think, but how.

As so often, Jochanaan hits the nail on the head. You do need to understand the musical tradition before you can (if you are so impelled) break away from it. Someone who is "self-educated" never knows more than he/she knows already. Genuine education challenges you to think outside your solipsistic boundaries.

[Renfield]

Education, at its best, does not teach you what to think, but how.

Yet the underlined part of the quote, to return to a more serious topic (and manner) of discussion, is quite a crucial one.

Formal education has its pitfalls, for all its advantages. And though I don't agree with 71db's general assertion of it necessarily leading to "boxed thinking", it often - perhaps more than often - does; or rather, it "doesn't not", as I agree with Jochanaan it should.

[max]

Education, at its best, does not teach you what to think, but how.

...you are so right! That's what education should be but seldom is. It usually defaults to it's lowest common denominator called the 'status quo' because it's professors seldom know much more themselves and it's institutions don't expect more. Quite the contrary!

Education, not to be denigrated, is also and has been throughout history it's own limitation. Those who break the rules are the one's most acutely aware of those limitations.

[mahlertitan]

When i was back in high school, I was enrolled in a special program, that was suppose to teach us "how to think". My history teachers were Che following commies, who would force feminism and far-left thinking into our minds. My epistemology teacher was somone quite special. It was him who really "taught" us "how to think" in a more philosophical context. He employed the Socratic method, basically, the day before every class, he assigns anywhere from 10 to 100 pages of reading material (per day) dealing with problems of knowledge in various areas of academic discipline. Next day, he begins the class with writing a big "?" on the white board, and what does he do afterwards? he sits back, and listens to our discussions. He almost never contributes anything other than asking us additional questions, "guiding" our discussion to the desired destinations. That was really something i had never seen before, because you are constantly put on the spot, you had to think, and think fast. At the end, it's amazing how far i have come, needless to say I benefited immensely from that class.

On another interesting note, this teacher of mine is a CE0 of a muti-million dollar investment group. He once sold a website of his for 60 million dollars during one of our passing periods(on the cellphone)! He teaches not for the money, but because he promised a boy who had AIDS to pursue his own dreams. The boy died at the end, and he quit acting to pursue a degree in education. And became a high school teacher. quite a story, huh?

[karlhenning]

And this, so pertinent to the res, deserves a repeat:

. . . Someone who is "self-educated" never knows more than he/she knows already. Genuine education challenges you to think outside your solipsistic boundaries.

[Cato]

And this, so pertinent to the res, deserves a repeat:

Consider Charles Ives, the ultimate American pioneer and maverick for "thinking outside the box."

To quote Thurston Howell III: "Good heavens, he must be a Yale man!"

Indeed!  Ives studied Music at Yale!

Even Schoenberg sought out teachers, like Alexander Zemlinsky, and did not rely totally on his own inner autodidactic powers.

Bruckner constantly sought out approbation from private teachers (e.g. Simon Sechter).

The danger for the autodidact is the self-pollination of arrogance.  The autodidact can be admired for his struggle to attain an education alone and against whatever prevents him from attaining normal schooling. 

But the master who never learned from a master...?  It is hard to find such a tale!

In all of this, I am constantly reminded of...SAUL!   

[71 dB]

I think the one who got brainwashed is 71dB himself, thinking such a minor and unimportant composer as a giant like Bruckner or Mahler.

Whatever though, you can keep listening to that Elgar junk all you want, you don't know what you're missing.

Brainwashing is a everyday threat and I try my best to fight against it. I hope I am not badly brainwashed. People who think Elgar is unimportant are irrational and brainwashed. Elgar put England back to the musical map. Unimportant?

We all are missing a lot of great stuff because life it too short. What I am not missing is Mahler and Bruckner. I listen to them too and that's the reason I can say Elgar was better than these two composers (and Bruckner is better than Mahler). All three composers were masterful and their music is not boring.