The Art of Wilhelm Furtwängler

[George]

Agreed Mandryka, in that this is a phenomenal Eroica.

How does the Opus Kura transfer compare with Melodiya, I wonder?

Is that the same one that's in the M&A wartime set?

[Renfield]

Is that the same one that's in the M&A wartime set?

Indeed.

[George]

Indeed.

Sweet, then I got it.

[Renfield]

Sweet, then I got it.

Although the difference in sound quality between M&A and Melodiya is vast.

[George]

Although the difference in sound quality between M&A and Melodiya is vast.

With the Melodiya being better?

[Renfield]

With the Melodiya being better?

Hands down. I re-bought the entire contents of that M&A box set on Melodiya, after I realised the difference. (Except for the Beethoven 5th - for some odd reason, given how much I love it in its DG iteration - coupled with the incomplete Bruckner 6th on Melodiya.)

[Que]

Hands down. I re-bought the entire contents of that M&A box set on Melodiya, after I realised the difference. (Except for the Beethoven 5th - for some odd reason, given how much I love it in its DG iteration - coupled with the incomplete Bruckner 6th on Melodiya.)

For the war-time recordings Melodiya and Opus Kura, which has issued some of the wartime recordings in transfers from Melodiya LP's, are ahead of the rest by a long stretch. They even top previous efforts by Tahra! Besides, M&A is a label I try to avoid as much as possible anyway - too much tinkering and 2nd rate source material.

I never did an A-B comparison of the same recording on Melodiya and Opus Kura BTW, might be interesting though I do not expect big differences.

Q

[jwinter]

If it's not too much trouble, could someone direct me or link to a good source for the Melodiya or Opus Kura issues for the US, specifically for the stuff from the M&A WWII Beethoven set?  I see several Melodiya Furtwangler Beethoven CDs on Amazon, but they're OOP and I'm not seeing performance info.

Thanks!

[George]

If it's not too much trouble, could someone direct me or link to a good source for the Melodiya or Opus Kura issues for the US, specifically for the stuff from the M&A WWII Beethoven set?  I see several Melodiya Furtwangler Beethoven CDs on Amazon, but they're OOP and I'm not seeing performance info.

Thanks!

Ditto.

[Anne]

The same here too.

[imperfection]

I just got this:



The fragmentary 1st (finale only, recorded 1945) alone justifies the price tag. I also wish they had included the wartime 3rd here instead of the 1954 one because it is simply more intense, more fiery, more Furtwängler.

[jwinter]

I just got this:



The fragmentary 1st (finale only, recorded 1945) alone justifies the price tag. I also wish they had included the wartime 3rd here instead of the 1954 one because it is simply more intense, more fiery, more Furtwängler.

That's a great set, one of my favorites.

Though I'm now wondering about the sound quality -- are the Melodiya masters of the WWII Furtwangler recordings better because they used superior source material (ie stuff from the Russian archives that somebody grabbed when they marched into Berlin in 1945), or is it better remastering technique/technology?  (or both?).  Or to put it another way, does the improvement show in post-WWII recordings as well, or just the wartime ones?

[Que]

That's a great set, one of my favorites.

Though I'm now wondering about the sound quality -- are the Melodiya masters of the WWII Furtwangler recordings better because they used superior source material (ie stuff from the Russian archives that somebody grabbed when they marched into Berlin in 1945), or is it better remastering technique/technology?  (or both?).  Or to put it another way, does the improvement show in post-WWII recordings as well, or just the wartime ones?

This is just about the wartime recordings - the only ones that Melodiya has ever had access to.
Judging from the recordings both Opus Kura & Melodiya have superior source material. We know what procedure Opus Kura follows: they make transfers of Melodiya LP's that were issued right after the war, when the "confiscated" magnetic tapes were still in prime condition. What Melodiya does is unclear, perhaps they use copies they made earlier of the original tapes (that they have returned some years ago) as BBC Magazine has stated, or maybe they transfer in some cases from LP's as well.
As to remastering technique, both Opus Kura and Melodiya took a restrained approach: little filtering, little tinkering. Be prepared for a "rougher" sound picture, but which is more detailed and more immediate.
As to post-war recordings my favourite source is Tahra - for the recordings they have issued, of course. And to complete the picture: for the pre-war (studio) recordings tranferred from '78rpms: Opus Kura.

Q

[Que]

I just got this:



The fragmentary 1st (finale only, recorded 1945) alone justifies the price tag. I also wish they had included the wartime 3rd here instead of the 1954 one because it is simply more intense, more fiery, more Furtwängler.

I think you're confusing the 3rd & the 4th - there is no wartime 3rd!

Q

[Renfield]

I think you're confusing the 3rd & the 4th - there is no wartime 3rd!

Q

There is, as long as his version of the war ended in 1949.

[imperfection]

I think you're confusing the 3rd & the 4th - there is no wartime 3rd!

Q

Really! I swear I heard an ultra-intense 3rd from WF and I thought it was the wartime background that was lending it the extra punch.

[Renfield]

Really! I swear I heard an ultra-intense 3rd from WF and I thought it was the wartime background that was lending it the extra punch.

Furtwängler didn't really need the war to be intense. Obviously, it added some tension to certain pieces on certain occasions (see: Beethoven - Coriolan Overture, Symphony No. 9), but I don't think his conducting being less high-adrenaline later on had much to do with the war ending.

[imperfection]

While I agree that WF's recordings are often very intense during wartime or not, I do value his 1939-1945 recordings on a different level than his post-war ones. I don't know about you but I get the very strong sense of "Unheil" in those recordings, which makes them extraordinarily and uniquely passionate. Of course there are other "emotional" and "intense" conductors too, but WF during wartime is just unequaled.

If one was looking for good sound however, the recordings made 1950 onwards will have to fit the bill. I remember many saying how they couldn't believe the great sound (for its era) of the 1951 Brahms 1st and 1954 Lucerne Beethoven 9th, for instance.

I hope we are more on topic now and that we will stay that way. 

[Renfield]

I hope we are more on topic now and that we will stay that way. 

As do I.

I do agree that the wartime recordings are interesting, and unique. But I also consider Furtwängler's 1938 BPO Pathétique, for instance, quite indispensable. Later on, a thing to consider was Furtwängler's personal circumstances, his health problems and loss of hearing - not to mention the unremitting (for Furtwängler) competition posed by someone called Herbert von Karajan.

That having been said, even on a a purely musical ground, his 1949 Brahms 3rd is quite intense, you said it yourself, and that's after the war.


As for my personal view, it is very much Furtwängler's "late" period that I find his most rewarding:

The 1949 and 1954 Brahms 3rd, the 1951 Brahms 1st, the 1954 Beethoven 5th (though along with the 1943 account, which was probably his best) and 9th (of course), as well as his post-war Wagner, to name a few recordings, are veritable treasures. Not to mention his Salzburg Festival recordings, including a fantastic 1951 Bruckner 5th; although for Bruckner in specific, the war-time material is quite impossible to ignore.


Edit: Que, as Furtwängler expert-in-residence, correct me if I'm wrong with any of those dates!

[imperfection]

As do I.

I do agree that the wartime recordings are interesting, and unique. But I also consider Furtwängler's 1938 BPO Pathétique, for instance, quite indispensable. Later on, a thing to consider was Furtwängler's personal circumstances, his health problems and loss of hearing - not to mention the unremitting (for Furtwängler) competition posed by someone called Herbert von Karajan.

That having been said, even on a a purely musical ground, his 1949 Brahms 3rd is quite intense, you said it yourself, and that's after the war.


As for my personal view, it is very much Furtwängler's "late" period that I find his most rewarding:

The 1949 and 1954 Brahms 3rd, the 1951 Brahms 1st, the 1954 Beethoven 5th (though along with the 1943 account, which was probably his best) and 9th (of course), as well as his post-war Wagner, to name a few recordings, are veritable treasures. Not to mention his Salzburg Festival recordings, including a fantastic 1951 Bruckner 5th; although for Bruckner in specific, the war-time material is quite impossible to ignore.


Edit: Que, as Furtwängler expert-in-residence, correct me if I'm wrong with any of those dates!

Slightly OT: Any idea why he didn't want Karajan to succeed him?