The Art of Wilhelm Furtwängler

[George]

....but without the SACD layer initiated, one is at least left with what some consider an incredible transfer of this 9th, without having to search high and low for their previous issue.  It is quite good, but I enjoy his 1942 (M&A) more.

Yes, I have that set too. An intense, individual account of those symphonies for sure.

[Martin Lind]

Don't expect me to read the whole thread. I have some recordings of Furtwängler and I appriciate them. I bought the box by TIM ( The international musiccompany). Bad sound of course, these are wartime recordings. All life. Very cheap. I found the Bruckners 9th very good, even better than the Jochum ( would only the sound be better!) and loved the Cesar Franck symphony.

Recently I had a meeting with someone whom I met in a German classical music forum. He brought me some more Furtwängler as a present. All symphonies of Brahms, Bruckners 4th, Beethovens 9th Haydn and others. These were recordings mostly of the early 50es ( only one 1949) and the sound was vastly superior. I loved the Brahms, especially the first symphony, but the 3rd was even better. Furtwängler plays the 3rd with flexible tempi, accelerandos and riterdandos. The result was utterly compelling, I got the impression to hear the symphony realy for the first time. I like that, IF it compells me. I love for that matter Bruckners 7th with Jochum and find the much praised Chaily utterly boring.

But these CDs are not on the market. My friend is a member of the German "Furtwängler Gesellschaft". There is also a Furtwängler society in France and in Japan. On the CDs I found the imprint "only for members of the Furtwängler society". This is something I find quite strange. Should Furtwängler be someone for an elitarian society and not for everyone???

But Brahms 3rd ( With the BPO, life) is glorious.

Regards
Martin

[Harry]

Well I fully expect to get a answer from the experts frequenting this thread about a work Furtwangler wrote himself. The second Symphony! Not much of quality recordings around, so I have a question about this recording. I like what I hear, obviously a live recording, but is it any good? The Chicago SO sounds marvelous.

[George]

Well I fully expect to get a answer from the experts frequenting this thread about a work Furtwangler wrote himself. The second Symphony! Not much of quality recordings around, so I have a question about this recording. I like what I hear, obviously a live recording, but is it any good? The Chicago SO sounds marvelous.

I think that Todd has said he likes this one. You may want to PM him. 

[Harry]

I think that Todd has said he likes this one. You may want to PM him. 

I will Howard, thanks!

[sam adams]

There is a customer review for this on Amazon that states that the EMI version we are familiar with is actually mostly a recording of the dress rehersal and not the actual live performance. He goes on to state that this release by Orfeo is the actual live performance which is far superior.

Is this guy under the influence or do I need to check this out?

Here is a link with the review: http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphony-No-9/dp/B0014Z3OH6/ref=pd_bbs_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1222355892&sr=8-4

[dirkronk]

Well, heck...I'M curious as can be. If anyone has this, can we please get an independent report here? Until I hear evidence, I'm keeping the (March) 1942 LvB 9th at the top of my personal Furtwangler pantheon.

Hmmm...

Dirk

[Dancing Divertimentian]

A recent issue of Fanfare (I think July/August) reviews a recording of this famous 1951 ninth and relates a similar story. Not IIRC as dramatic as this Amazon reviewer's claim but I can't be sure until I get hold of my issue (it's at work).

Will get back tomorrow.

[PSmith08]

Owning both, I can say that the differences are not tremendous. There are clearly differences, though, and that's apparent just by track timings. As to specific bar-by-bar variations, I confess that I've had neither the time nor the inclination to sit down with both and a copy of the score. That seems a bit much. I prefer, however, the Orfeo release because it sounds more natural and seems to capture some of the Festspielhaus acoustic. The EMI GROTC disc is a little more aggressive in comparison.

All that aside, I return, often as not, to the 1954 Lucerne performance (though I've yet to buy the Tahra remaster/SACD) or, when I'm feeling weird, the 1954 Bayreuth performance from earlier that August. I contend that the latter performance, despite suffering from execrable sound, has the best soloists Furtwängler ever got on record. Of course, if the prewar 9th is of interest, one is forced to seek out the 1937 London performance with the Berliners. That equivocation aside, the 1951 performance is nice, but any one of the 1954 sets is nicer.

[Que]

I believe the story is that the EMI is doctored, consisting of the live recording with parts of other performances added. Orfeo made a clear enough statement about it, but refrains from commenting on the EMI: "For a long time, the unedited recording of the legendary performance on Bayreuth's Green Hill that was broadcast live to the whole of Europe was believed to be lost. It is now being issued by Orfeo in a carefully restored pressing." (see my earlier post HERE ) If we are to believe rmrc, there is also a article published in the newsletter of the American Furtwangler Society that supports the editing-by-Legge theory. Purely on instinct, I think it might be true. Legge does seem not an unlikely suspect for tinkering, given his reputation in this, and I always felt the EMI recording actually does feel "disjointed" - the WF effect of long, continuous arches of tension is insufficiently present IMO. I never much liked it and much prefer the Lucerne recording.

Q

[sam adams]

Thanks Que, I read this thread awhile back, and I must have forgot that part where you discussed this already.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Sam adams, Que, and the rest:

According to Henry Fogel, the resident Furtwängler expert at Fanfare (and who's the former president of the Chicago Symphony), the EMI is mostly the real performance with segments of rehearsals edited in to tidy up any live performance gaffes (like an early violin entrance in the third movement).

So I'm not sure where that Amazon guy got his information (he doesn't list his sources) but it would appear he's in error. Fogel is a top Furtwängler specialist as far as recordings go so I'm betting he's got it right.

However, the BIGGEST revelation is that the EMI isn't sourced directly from the Bavarian Radio tapes. It's sourced from EMI's own proprietary setup, whereby we now know the actual performance plus rehearsals were recorded.

So apparently then what we have with this Orfeo release (along with a Furtwängler Society of America release which is the subject of Fogel's review in Fanfare) is the first release ever of this performance taken directly from the Bavarian Radio tapes (concurrently with the FSoA release, apparently). In the past EMI had always gone with their own source.

So what this means is the sound quality (according to Fogel) is much improved over any previous EMI release. There is (to quote Fogel) "more clarity, more sonic impact, and a fuller range of orchestral color" on the original Bavarian Radio recording. (Anyone interested should check out the July/August issue of Fanfare, Pg. 83-84).

Might be worth checking out!

[M forever]

I don't think Fogel is still president of the CSO. AFAIK, he is now president of the League of American Orchestras.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

You're right. He's retired from the CSO, now.

My mistake.

[imperfection]

Hey GMG, I downloaded this "Furtwangler wartime 1942 Beethoven 9", but the title doesn't say which recording it is -- March or April (Hitler's birthday)? Please help if you have both recordings to compare with. Thanks. Here is the first movement of the recording, in 320kbps:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?in0wymzoddd

timings:
first movement - 17:17
second movement - 11:21
third movement - 20:07
fourth movement - 24:19

Thanks a lot!

[Que]

Hey GMG, I downloaded this "Furtwangler wartime 1942 Beethoven 9", but the title doesn't say which recording it is -- March or April (Hitler's birthday)? Please help if you have both recordings to compare with. Thanks.

Wilhelm Furtwaengler
Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
Beethoven symphony no.9, "Choral" in D minor, op. 125
Wartime recording, 1942

This is the most apocalyptic, intense and fiery version I've ever heard. Its power is unbelievable...the timpani sound like mortar rounds being fired on the battlefields during the time of the recording. At the closing bars of the finale, the cymbal crashes sound like large caliber machine guns firing--no exaggeration.

The only problem is that I don't know which recording this is, as WF and the BPO made 2 Beethoven ninths in 1942, one in March and one in April. If anyone has both, please head to the "Great recordings" section of this forum and read my thread, I posted the recording there, see if you can help me identify it. Thanks ! 

Not to worry, there is only one real recording of the 9th from 1942: made on 22-24 March. April is just a film clip - and John Ardoin suggest in his book "The Furtwängler Record" that there are indications that the sound with that clip is actually from the March recording.

BTW that concert on the 19th of April was actually not on Hitler's birthday, but an ordinary concert on the night before. Furtwängler was not aware that Hitler would attend the concert - and thus making it into a quasi "concert in honour of his birthday" - until shortly before the concert.

Kathrin, Furtwängler's daughter: "That Nuremberg concert was supposed to be on Hitler's birthday, so my father scheduled it the day before, thinking Hitler would not attend. He was so furious when Hitler came to the concert that he pulled a radiator off the wall. Furtwängler came on the stage and told his musicians to begin right away. But after the concert, Hitler gave him his hand and he had to shake it. If you don't know the story, then it is easy to get the wrong idea from the photo."

Q

[purephase]

Not to worry, there is only one real recording of the 9th from 1942: made on 22-24 March. April is just a film clip - and John Ardoin suggest in his book "The Furtwängler Record" that there are indications that the sound with that clip is actually from the March recording.

BTW that concert on the 19th of March was actually not on Hitler's birthday, but an ordinary concert on the night before. Furtwängler was not aware that Hitler would attend the concert - and thus making it into a quasi "concert in honour of his birthday" - until shortly before the concert.
Q

I do not believe this is entirely accurate.  In 2004 Archipel released a recording of the April 1942 performance.  You are correct however that all of the film clips feature the music from the March performance.  Here is what Fogel said about the recording in Fanfare:

"I have listened to the Beethoven 9th on Archipel (ARPCD 0270) which claims to be a first release of a Furtwangler Beethoven Ninth, from April 19, 1942. It appears to be exactly what it claims to be.

I compared it directly with the known wartime performance from a few weeks earlier (March 22-24, 1942), and it is definitely a different performance. But its interpretive outlines are so similar, its force personality so strongly individual, that there can be no doubt it is Furtwangler.

This is the special performance that was given in honor of Hitler's birthday. It is followed by a radio announcement identifying the performers.

Is it worth owning? That depends on the degree of your interest in Furtwangler. In many ways, the sound here is similar to that of the more famous wartime recording, although there is a level of hiss and noise that distracts in soft passages. But the sound has actually more color and bite than the other 1942 performance, though a bit more distortion, particularly in softer passages.

The performance has the same ferocity as the earlier wartime one, except even more so. The final coda is an outburst the likes of which I have never encountered -- it is crazed, almost completely out of control. It must have stunned the audience, because there is a surprising silence before the applause start.

The soloists are for the most part different, only bass Rudolf Watzke is the same. Erna Berger here sings much more beautifully than Tilla Briem ; Helge Rosvaenge is the equal of Peter Anders. The mezzo here is Gertrude Pitzinger, but one hardly remembers the mezzo.

I think serious Furtwangler collectors will want this because of its huge importance as an event in the conductor's life. Michael Tanner's notes discuss the occasion -- how after many years of managing to avoid the Hitler birthday concert, Furtwangler was forced by Goebbels to conduct this one. This is one of the things that has been held against Furtwangler by those who would judge him guilty for his staying in Germany. Without wishing to get into that here -- and I don't -- the fact is that this concert was clearly an event of strong, even overpowering, emotions for the conductor (I hear anger in the conducting, but perhaps that's me), and it makes this performance unique."

As for imperfection's original question, I believe those are the track times from the March performance.

[Que]

I do not believe this is entirely accurate.  In 2004 Archipel released a recording of the April 1942 performance.  You are correct however that all of the film clips feature the music from the March performance.  Here is what Fogel said about the recording in Fanfare:

"I have listened to the Beethoven 9th on Archipel (ARPCD 0270) which claims to be a first release of a Furtwangler Beethoven Ninth, from April 19, 1942. It appears to be exactly what it claims to be.

I compared it directly with the known wartime performance from a few weeks earlier (March 22-24, 1942), and it is definitely a different performance. But its interpretive outlines are so similar, its force personality so strongly individual, that there can be no doubt it is Furtwangler.

Interesting, many thanks. It seems that my data on Furtwängler's recordings is outdated!
I guess I have to hear this myself. After a search on the net I understand that it is claimed to be a private off-the-air recording from the radio broadcast, which would explain its sudden appearance.
BTW are you aware of confirmation from other sources that this is indeed by Furtwängler?



Q

[Mandryka]

Years ago,  when I first got interested in music, I met an old disheveled guy queueing for a cheap Tristan ticket in the gods of the Royal Opera Covent Garden. We got talking and he told me that he had spent his life searching for the greatest performance of Beethoven's third symphony.

Well if you're reading this, old chap, I've found it:

[Renfield]

Agreed Mandryka, in that this is a phenomenal Eroica.

How does the Opus Kura transfer compare with Melodiya, I wonder?