The Art of Wilhelm Furtwängler

[Bogey]

I think you have hit upon something interesting, Bill! I was not aware of this before, BTW.

Quoting John Ardoin's "The Furtwängler Record":
There has been some confusion surrounding the 1943 performances. They derive from two sources: a studio performance an a broadcast performance with audience. The DG LP issue is of the complete performance with an audience, while Melodiya issued a hybrid version consisting of the first movements drawn from the live performances and the last two from the studio session. It was not until 1988, when many of the Furtwängler master tapes were returned from Russia, that the complete live performance could finally be heard, issued on CD by DG. Of the two it is this one that is of greater interest and authority.

From Opus Kura's website, who issued - according to them - the broadcast version:
Beethoven's Symphony No. 4 on CD OPK7002 was recorded for broadcast in the old Philharmonic hall on June 28 or 30th, 1943. Two or more copy tapes were probably created; U.S. VOX bought one of the tapes and issued it on LP in 1952 (PL7210). At least one tape was taken (along with many other RRG tapes) to the Soviet Union, and issued on Melodiya LP after 1956; their first publication was on the blue torch label GOCT 5289-56. Deutsche Grammophon acquired yet another copy tape which they published on LP in 1962 (LPM 18817). Melodiya then stopped manufacturing LPs of the broadcast performance and instead issued a hybrid version made from a broadcast performance of the 1st and 2nd movements and live recordings of the 3rd and 4th movements.

A complete live recording was eventually issued around 1973. The black label LP and later CD (MEL CD 1000719) which sold predominantly in Japan, were from such a source. This live performance was also included among the tapes the Russians returned to Sender Freies Berlin in 1987 , and first published by DG in 1989. The DG tape has been frequently re-issued in Japan on Polidor CDs (most recently on POCG-9485). There appears to have been no reissue of the broadcast performance since it was published by Turnabout LP (from the VOX tape) in 1971 (TV 4344).

So there are three versions roaming around: a live one, a broadcast version recorded without an audience and a hybrid version. Opus Kura is well informed on the topic of Melodiya issues, so I take their word for it that Melodiya issued all three versions and that Opus Kura issued a transfer of the LP issue of the broadcast version.

Melodiya indicates that they used the live version for the CD issue - dated the 27th. Hopefully comparing timings might help to figure out what's what.

OPUS KURA  1. 11'14" 2. 12'11" 3. 5'40" 4. 7'00"

MELODIYA 1. 11'03" 2. 11'49" 3. 5'29" 4. 6'49"

All timings are different and Melodiya's timings all below Opus Kura, which might indicate that indeed the 1st one is the broadcast recording and the 2nd the live one - since Furtwängler live timings are in my experince generally quicker. Bill, could you post the M&A timings? If they indicate two dates, it might be the hybrid version?

I'm glad you brought it up. Because ever since I got the Melodiya I had the feeling that it was different from the Opus Kura both aurally and as a performance but I couldn't figure out why because I thought it was the same performance (Opus Kura doesn't give a date on the CD itself). Now I know why! I'll have to check the individual movements.

Q

Awesome research here, my friend.  Here are the Music and Arts' timings:

1. 11:09
2. 11:57
3. 5:33
4. 6:56

So, is your Opus Kura without audience sound (coughs and such)?

[Coopmv]

I just ordered this CD late last week and am looking forward to listen to it ...

[Bogey]

I just ordered this CD late last week and am looking forward to listen to it ...

Coolness, Stuart!

I rolled this one out today:



Went with No. 3 from 1944.

[Coopmv]

Coolness, Stuart!

I rolled this one out today:



Went with No. 3 from 1944.

I bought this set last year.  It is too bad the set does not include the full Beethoven cycle ...

[Bogey]

I bought this set last year.  It is too bad the set does not include the full Beethoven cycle ...

I believe they kept it a WWII era, so that may explain it.  Que would know.

[Que]

Awesome research here, my friend.  Here are the Music and Arts' timings:

1. 11:09
2. 11:57
3. 5:33
4. 6:56

So, is your Opus Kura without audience sound (coughs and such)?

Yes, I just did the entire recording with the head phones on - no audience noises at all.



Interesting that the M&A timings are right between the two. Does M&A give any information?

Q

[ccar]

I think you have hit upon something interesting, Bill! I was not aware of this before, BTW.

Quoting John Ardoin's "The Furtwängler Record":
There has been some confusion surrounding the 1943 performances. They derive from two sources: a studio performance an a broadcast performance with audience. The DG LP issue is of the complete performance with an audience, while Melodiya issued a hybrid version consisting of the first movements drawn from the live performances and the last two from the studio session. It was not until 1988, when many of the Furtwängler master tapes were returned from Russia, that the complete live performance could finally be heard, issued on CD by DG. Of the two it is this one that is of greater interest and authority.

From Opus Kura's website, who issued - according to them - the broadcast version:
Beethoven's Symphony No. 4 on CD OPK7002 was recorded for broadcast in the old Philharmonic hall on June 28 or 30th, 1943. Two or more copy tapes were probably created; U.S. VOX bought one of the tapes and issued it on LP in 1952 (PL7210). At least one tape was taken (along with many other RRG tapes) to the Soviet Union, and issued on Melodiya LP after 1956; their first publication was on the blue torch label GOCT 5289-56. Deutsche Grammophon acquired yet another copy tape which they published on LP in 1962 (LPM 18817). Melodiya then stopped manufacturing LPs of the broadcast performance and instead issued a hybrid version made from a broadcast performance of the 1st and 2nd movements and live recordings of the 3rd and 4th movements.

A complete live recording was eventually issued around 1973. The black label LP and later CD (MEL CD 1000719) which sold predominantly in Japan, were from such a source. This live performance was also included among the tapes the Russians returned to Sender Freies Berlin in 1987 , and first published by DG in 1989. The DG tape has been frequently re-issued in Japan on Polidor CDs (most recently on POCG-9485). There appears to have been no reissue of the broadcast performance since it was published by Turnabout LP (from the VOX tape) in 1971 (TV 4344).

So there are three versions roaming around: a live one, a broadcast version recorded without an audience and a hybrid version. Opus Kura is well informed on the topic of Melodiya issues, so I take their word for it that Melodiya issued all three versions and that Opus Kura issued a transfer of the LP issue of the broadcast version.

Melodiya indicates that they used the live version for the CD issue - dated the 27th. Hopefully comparing timings might help to figure out what's what.

OPUS KURA  1. 11'14" 2. 12'11" 3. 5'40" 4. 7'00"

MELODIYA 1. 11'03" 2. 11'49" 3. 5'29" 4. 6'49"

All timings are different and Melodiya's timings all below Opus Kura, which might indicate that indeed the 1st one is the broadcast recording and the 2nd the live one - since Furtwängler live timings are in my experince generally quicker. Bill, could you post the M&A timings? If they indicate two dates, it might be the hybrid version?

I'm glad you brought it up. Because ever since I got the Melodiya I had the feeling that it was different from the Opus Kura both aurally and as a performance but I couldn't figure out why because I thought it was the same performance (Opus Kura doesn't give a date on the CD itself). Now I know why! I'll have to check the individual movements.

Q

Yes, I just did the entire recording with the head phones on - no audience noises at all.



Interesting that the M&A timings are right between the two. Does M&A give any information?

Q

Although the stated dates are different (MEL - 27 Jun 43/ DG - 30 Jun 43) when we actually listen to the DG and the Melodiya CD editions there is little doubt they are taken from the same performance. The timings are also identical and there are obvious "live" (audience) noises in every movement. Which edition has the right recording date will be very difficult to confirm, unless some documents describing the recording sessions are found.

Comparing the Melodiya/DG performance with the Opus Kura "broadcast" edition (OPK 7002) we do listen to another performance, with very different timings and, as Q mentioned, no noises suggesting an audience. Opus Kura does not compromise with a recording date but (as stated in the notes) this is most probably the "broadcast" performance (without audience).

More difficult to compare is the Music & Arts edition. Listening, it does seem the same "live" (audience) performance as Melodiya and DG. The sound quality is different but, at least in my ears, the performance is similar. And in every movement there are also audience noises suggesting a live/audience performance. Some small differences in the timings do exist but they are more probably related with a different transfer and not with a different origin.

The reference on John Ardoin's book to some hybrid (audience/no audience) editions may be correct but it could apply only to some of the LP editions. I saw no signs of it in the CD versions I have.

For me, the "live" (audience) version is a more interesting performance than the "broadcast". And the Melodiya CD has probably the more vivid transfer.     

PS - to be more precise it must be noted Opus Kura issued the broadcast/no audience version (OPK 7002) and also the "live" version (OPK7017).   


                 

[Coopmv]

I hope to give the following CD a spin over the next day or so.  The CD arrived early this week ...

[Que]

The reference on John Ardoin's book to some hybrid (audience/no audience) editions may be correct but it could apply only to some of the LP editions. I saw no signs of it in the CD versions I have.

Indeed - all the mentions by Ardoin & Opus Kura refer to LP's. Opus Kura's web site notes also state that the DG is the live recording. I couldn't compare myself but I felt the Melodiya was also the live performance - thanks for the confirmation.

For me, the "live" (audience) version is a more interesting performance than the "broadcast". And the Melodiya CD has probably the more vivid transfer.

Fully agree! Both on performance and on transfer - for war time recordings I recommend Melodiya, though Opus Kura is very good as well. Opus Kura used transfers from old Melodiya LP's, I think Melodiya does the same. The one performance that misses in a transfer of that quality is the Bruckner IX....

Q

[Bill H.]

To throw in another ball, earlier this year Andrew Rose at Pristine Classical issued his own remastering of the 1943 4th and 7th (PASC267).  He lists the date of the 4th as being 30 June.  Rose tends to be more aggressive in removing audience noise whenever he can, but I do hear some, so I assume this is the concert recording. 

The timings for the Pristine 4th are: 

I:  11:20
II: 12:14
III: 5:36
IV: 7:09

He does not state the source material he has used for this particular remastering. 

BH
   

[David]

I found a very nice mastering of Furtwängler's March 1942 Beethoven 9th on a Japanese website called "Public Domain classics"; see http://public-domain-archive.com/classic/download.php?lang=eng&album_no=1094.

I have the versions from M&A, Tahra, Opus Kura and Melodiya, but that public domain version has a cleaner sound then all of them. There is no tape hiss or scratch noise, very little distortion, good top end (unlike OPK) and the bass response is just slightly less than on Tahra, but better than on M&A and Melodiya.

My obvious question is if anyone has an idea what source that upload is from? The MP3 tags seem to be Japanese, so I can't read them. What strikes is me that the first movement runs only 17:09, so it might be a vinyl rip. Comments anyone?

[Roberto]

For the topic of Beethoven 4th wartime:
It was interesting to read for me. I have it only on the DG release (Recordings 1942-1944, Vol. 1). But after it I have checked the French Society's homepage about their release. They wrote about their release:

"We released recently in 2002 a CD set SWF 011-13 which was supposed to contain 2 and a half performances of Beethoven's Fourth (June 1943). But a Japanese member found out that the live performance of CD SWF 011 was in fact a concert of September 1953, with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra - which we released already, several years ago (SWF 892). This error was caused by a confusion of tapes."

They sent a correct recording to the buyers after it and their new CD contains the correct performance now. The booklet on the page doesn't contain timings. But if they faced with this problem maybe other recording companies did the same mistake. (Who didn't use Melodiya LP as source).

For the performance: the first movement is the best but for the overall performance I have the Mengelberg/Opus Kura release which is better for me. (Especially the 2nd movement which was incoherent for me on all recordings I've heard until I haven't heard Mengelberg's.)

[Mandryka]

I've just discovered this CD on spotify, which contains a transfer of the Gran Partita, much much better than the one I own, which is the first one on EMI References.

Has anyone tried  Ward Marston's transfer on Naxos? Or the 2006 transfer on EMI? Can anyone identify the spotify CD? Does anyone know about the quality of other transfers?

Listening to this performance again I was struck by two things. One is the extraordinary darkness of WF's vision of this music. The other is the relatively restrained and classical style he adopts. This doesn't seem to me to be an overly romantic interpretation at all.

[Drasko]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0040T7COE/?tag=goodmusicguideco-21

Anyone heard this? If so, is there any improvement in sound over DG Original Masters box release?
Musical Concepts, who they? Some relation to Alto?

[Barney1988]

hi there,

Having read the 14 pages of this topic, does anyone recommend a particular label for Furtwangler's War recordings? Tahra, M&A or Melodiya?
Thanks a lot!

[Que]

hi there,

Having read the 14 pages of this topic, does anyone recommend a particular label for Furtwangler's War recordings? Tahra, M&A or Melodiya?
Thanks a lot!

As far as I'm concerned: I prefer Melodiya, or Opus Kura. Thara would be my 2nd option, and then M&A.

Q

[Barney1988]

Thanks, I've just heard the Symphony N°3 and 5 on Melodiya, the sound is much better than on other CD I had heard before! Although the lack of remastering to reduce the coughing sounds doesn't seem to be an issue for S3 but for the 5th it's bit more pronounced.

I came across, this week, a website called Pristine Classical, they offer various remastering of some of Furtwängler's recordings. You can listen to some movements for free. I feel the results are rather mixed, the Lucerne Beethoven 9th is very clear and balanced (although I haven't heard the Tahra version, yet), but the 1943 Beethoven 5th seems very distant.

Anyways, thanks a lot for the advice regarding Melodiya!

[Que]

Thanks, I've just heard the Symphony N°3 and 5 on Melodiya, the sound is much better than on other CD I had heard before! Although the lack of remastering to reduce the coughing sounds doesn't seem to be an issue for S3 but for the 5th it's bit more pronounced.

I came across, this week, a website called Pristine Classical, they offer various remastering of some of Furtwängler's recordings. You can listen to some movements for free. I feel the results are rather mixed, the Lucerne Beethoven 9th is very clear and balanced (although I haven't heard the Tahra version, yet), but the 1943 Beethoven 5th seems very distant.

Anyways, thanks a lot for the advice regarding Melodiya!

I strongly recommend the Tahra version for the Lucerne 9th.  BTW the orginal recording was of astoundingly good quality considering its age.

For other post-war recordings I used to recommend Tahra as well, but these days there are complete sets of the original Austrian (ORF) recordings on Orfeo and of the Berlin recordings on Audite.

Q

[Barney1988]

I am planning on getting a copy, I actually sent an email directly to Tahra, and they sell it for a lot less than amazon uk.
But as I'm without a job atm, I'm going to wait. And I'll keep an eye out for the ORF recordings too.

[Coopmv]

I am looking to get his Complete Beethoven Symphonies.  Unfortunately, that EMI (IIRC) box includes no fewer than 3 different orchestras perfomring these works.  What a weird Beethoven Symphonies cycle?