Your preferred speed of Beethoven's symphonies?

[Rod Corkin]

Sure.

Of course, he tipped his hat to Beethoven constantly, but Berlioz wrote some delightfully rapid music, and if anything, he went even scarier in the Symphonie fantastique.  Ditto on the rapidity (though not the scary) for Mendelssohn.

Ah, if you'd mentioned Berlioz before I would have understood, but that is just noise to me, all of it.

[Mark]

Ah, if you'd mentioned Berlioz before I would have understood, but that is just noise to me, all of it.

Karl, cover your eyes. You don't want to read this.

[longears]

On the other hand, there is no one tempo which is going to be right in all spaces/acoustics.  The Metronome Nazi is an evil equal and opposite to the Navel-Gazing "Oh, I just conduct the music the way I feel it, forget the metronome/tempo markings!" Sloth

Quite right!  And I've nothing against those who prefer a more leisurely pace--my quibble is with those who cite their preference as Absolute and even go to the extreme of trying to support it by claiming that Beethoven didn't know what he was doing. 

[karlhenning]

Not a bit of it, Mark.

Ah, if you'd mentioned Berlioz before I would have understood, but that is just noise to me, all of it.

Knowing Berlioz's work as well as I do, Rod, this tells me everything about your stance towards the music, and nothing about the music.

[karlhenning]

In fact, I look forward to grooving to some of The Berlioz Noise when Levine brings a concert performance of Les Troyens to Symphony Hall in the spring.

[longears]

Zinman only completed half the job, if he'd used a period instrument band instead the effect would have been much better.

  Are you saying you prefer period instrument performances?  All else equal, I sometimes do, too.  But Zinman's Zurich Beethoven is an historically informed modern instrument performance.  Using period instruments would not be consistent with the intent...sort of like riding a bicycle in a footrace.  Or am I missing something here?  (Sure wouldn't be the first time!    )

[George]

[Rod Corkin]

  Are you saying you prefer period instrument performances?  All else equal, I sometimes do, too.  But Zinman's Zurich Beethoven is an historically informed modern instrument performance.  Using period instruments would not be consistent with the intent...sort of like riding a bicycle in a footrace.  Or am I missing something here?  (Sure wouldn't be the first time!    )

These days I don't consider non-period instrument performances of Beethoven seriously. Of course Period instruments on their own do not guarantee a good interpretation. There is more to the sound than just the tempo, which is why Zinman kind of missed the point to my mind.

[Harry]

I like them fast and furious, and Zinman is that, he never misses a point or a note.

[Iago]

Its been several years since I actually looked at the score of the Beethoven Fifth Symphony. So I'm not really sure if the tempo markings for the opening Da Da Da Dah, and the ensuing Da Da Da Dah, are exactly the same.
I would think, that although nearing total deafness, Beethoven was clever enough to want to capture the "undivided ear" of the listener by employing a slight variation between the two. Something "special" to peak the immediate curiosity of the listener.
As I write this I am NOT listening to the music. So anything I say is based strictly on my musical memory.
Reiner and C. Kleiber employ slightly different tempi for each of those Da Da Da Dahs. They play the first set with enormous seriousness and portent of things to come. The second set is slightly fleeter of foot, as if to say "lets go boys--we'll show THEM who's boss around here". Karajan, Bernstein and Solti, reverse the order of things, with the first set being a bit less dramatic and portentous than the second set. As if they were saying ....we're going to build an edifice, the likes of which, has never been seen before.
On the othe hand the three old masters (Toscanini, Furtwaengler and Klemperer) all seem to play those two sets in the exact same tempo. Note please, I do NOT mean that the tempi adopted by those three maestri are interchangable with each other, but I DO mean that each one of them plays the first and second Da Da Da Dahs in exactly the same tempo (whichever it was that they have chosen). Now that may be accurate as far as the printed score is concerned, but as to how it affects me emotionally...well it simply doesn't do very much. It's as if I were caught in a totally unmoving traffic jam.  
The same things are true regarding the orchestral outbursts after the "bridge " passages in the final movement. That first outburst (IMO) should be triumphant and regal, the repeat outburst (later in the movement) should be more "devil may care". and "out for a night around town".
Music is a "living" thing and its respiration rate is different from moment to moment. It is not fixed or set in stone. For if it were, it would become a dead thing. So for me, tempo variations are a REQUIREMENT (within musical bounds) , and not a thing to be shunned.

[Rod Corkin]

Music is a "living" thing and its respiration rate is different from moment to moment. It is not fixed or set in stone. For if it were, it would become a dead thing. So for me, tempo variations are a REQUIREMENT (within musical bounds) , and not a thing to be shunned.

I agree a certain amount of flexibility is required to allow the music to 'breath', Beethoven's figures should be taken as the starting point by which the movement must be considered. Beethoven himself, when he provided metronome marks for his Oratorio, said that they related to the first few measures. But the flexibility should never undermine the required momentum, it should be subtle.

[12tone.]

George, you like your Beethoven symphonies at 50 bpm?  And what recording do you listen to to experience that?

[jochanaan]

Its been several years since I actually looked at the score of the Beethoven Fifth Symphony. So I'm not really sure if the tempo markings for the opening Da Da Da Dah, and the ensuing Da Da Da Dah, are exactly the same...

They are.  At least, there's no tempo change marked except for the fermatas.  The only difference is that the second fermata is actually two bars long.  Nor is there any marked tempo change for the subsequent returns.  In fact, the only marked tempo change in the movement is "Adagio" for the oboe cadenza (my favorite part ).

The "proper tempo" for any music actually depends somewhat on the size (and skill) of the orchestra.  A large orchestra might have to play slower than Beethoven's MMs just so we can hear all the notes. If I have to choose between hearing the notes and hearing Beethoven's marked tempos, I'll take the notes.  (Welllll, I suppose I don't necessarily have to hear each note of a string tremolo separately. )

[George]

George, you like your Beethoven symphonies at 50 bpm?  And what recording do you listen to to experience that?

'Twas a joke. 

(Nice to see you back around the neighborhood BTW) 

[12tone.]

'Twas a joke. 

(Nice to see you back around the neighborhood BTW) 

HAVE YOU GOT THE MENUHIN YET?!

[George]

HAVE YOU GOT THE MENUHIN YET?!

Nope.

[12tone.]

 

So, how is it going?

[George]

So, how is it going?

For once, it's going well, thanks. 

Got the Barenboim (LvB Symphony set) in the mail this week. 

[12tone.]

For once, it's going well, thanks. 

Got the Barenboim (LvB Symphony set) in the mail this week. 

I know it's been out for some time but, when I saw Pletnev's cycle my mouth dropped.  I didn't pick it up, though.  Was scared too    I heard on the radio from the announcer he took massive liberties.  Do you have it?

Barenboim sounds good.

[George]

I know it's been out for some time but, when I saw Pletnev's cycle my mouth dropped.  I didn't pick it up, though.  Was scared too    I heard on the radio from the announcer he took massive liberties.  Do you have it?

Barenboim sounds good.

Barenboim is dirt cheap from MDT. $26 delivered!! 

Ask Uffe about Pletnev, she's lovin' that set. I have given up on Pletnev, whether with the baton or at the piano.