Your preferred speed of Beethoven's symphonies?

[karlhenning]

Well Adagio was thrice as fast in Beethoven's time

Hmm, I have my doubts 

More than one passage in that (* ahem *) Adagio movement felt unfetteredly Allegro, Harry.  That just cannot be right.  Even Beethoven (or, especially Beethoven) must have wanted some contrast in tempo/character.

[BachQ]

Hmm, I have my doubts 

More than one passage in that (* ahem *) Adagio movement felt unfetteredly Allegro, Harry.  That just cannot be right.  Even Beethoven (or, especially Beethoven) must have wanted some contrast in tempo/character.

....... perhaps Harry needs to get up to speed on LvB's tempo indications ........

[Harry]

Hmm, I have my doubts 

More than one passage in that (* ahem *) Adagio movement felt unfetteredly Allegro, Harry.  That just cannot be right.  Even Beethoven (or, especially Beethoven) must have wanted some contrast in tempo/character.

"

Exactly Adagio means according to Beethoven Allegro.
I am kidding you of course, but in some letters from Beethoven and from his tagebucher it is noted, that he thought the boys of the band bungled up his tempo directions almost always, and he made great havoc about that. It seems it was never fast enough for him, as it is for me, by the way. And of course Beethoven wanted contrast in movements, and Norrington provides that, as Hogwood does by the way....

[jochanaan]

Hmm, I have my doubts 

More than one passage in that (* ahem *) Adagio movement felt unfetteredly Allegro, Harry.  That just cannot be right.  Even Beethoven (or, especially Beethoven) must have wanted some contrast in tempo/character.

I just checked my metronome markings, and 84 bpm to the eighth note, Beethoven's published marking, just feels too fast for this Adagio; I could not play it as an orchestral musician and give the notes their full emotional value.  But maybe Norrington shaped it so that it sounded all right.  I think I'd have to hear before I judged--although the Chamber Orchestra of Europe (I assume that's the COE you referred to, Karl...?) ought to be an appropriately-sized group to play Beethoven, and competent enough to play the notes clearly even at Beethoven's original MMs.

On the other hand, Karl, it's possible that we're just a couple of old fogeys when it comes to Beethoven.

[Rod Corkin]

"

Exactly Adagio means according to Beethoven Allegro.
I am kidding you of course, but in some letters from Beethoven and from his tagebucher it is noted, that he thought the boys of the band bungled up his tempo directions almost always, and he made great havoc about that. It seems it was never fast enough for him, as it is for me, by the way. And of course Beethoven wanted contrast in movements, and Norrington provides that, as Hogwood does by the way....

Think of the metronome mark for the adagio of the 9th symphony. Beethoven has metronome mark of 60. How can this above all numbers be a mistake? We all know 60! He also offers the same mark of 60 for the molto adagio of String Quartet Op.59, No.2. He gets it wrong again?? Methinks not.

Not sure if this has already been presented in this thread, but here is a very interesting article on this subject:
http://www.benjaminzander.com/news/detail.asp?id=158

[PerfectWagnerite]

http://www.benjaminzander.com/news/detail.asp?id=158

What a yawner. It's 9 something in the morning and I had a big cup of coffee yet halfway through that article I feel like crawling back in bed again. Typical Ben Zander, more verbose than Wagner.

[Rod Corkin]

What a yawner. It's 9 something in the morning and I had a big cup of coffee yet halfway through that article I feel like crawling back in bed again. Typical Ben Zander, more verbose than Wagner.

What are you doing up at 9 something in the morning on a Sunday in any case?

[PerfectWagnerite]

What are you doing up at 9 something in the morning on a Sunday in any case?

Well my 10 month old daugther woke up at 6:30 am, which means I have to get up at 6:30am.

Anyway usually I can stand listening to Zander the first time (like all the Mahler stuff he did) but the second and third time through his rant is a bit more difficult to take. I didn't get very far this time but this bothers me:

When Beethoven composed the opening of the Symphony No.5, he must have had some particular 'meaning' in mind, he must have heard the music in some particular way. He cannot possibly have heard it both at the Furtwangler-Klemperer tempo and the one he wrote in the score. It is unlikely that he was indifferent about the matter - just as unlikely, in fact, as that he would have been indifferent as to which notes were played. For Beethoven cared so deeply about the tempi at which his works were performed that, according to his friend Anton Schindler, whenever he heard about a performance of one of them, 'his first question invariably was: "How were the tempi?" Every other consideration seemed to be of secondary importance to him'.

The entire argument is not based on facts, it is based on assumptions and maybes and most likely's. Maybe Beethoven WOULD like the Klemperer or Furtwangler tempo choices some days of the week but Norrington tempi others days of the week.

[Que]

Maybe Beethoven WOULD like the Klemperer or Furtwangler tempo choices some days of the week but Norrington tempi others days of the week.

Maybe. Maybe when Beethoven had heard all Bruckner en Mahler symphonies, and had experienced the "Titanic" present day symphony orchestras, maybe he would have agreed.
But then he probably would have written something quite different...

But I still enjoy a Furtwängler performance!

Q

[FideLeo]

Maybe Beethoven would have to re-write and and re-orchestrate his symphonies if he were to use today's bloated orchestras and their bloated tempi and dynamics. 

[Franco]

After finding this thread once I was shown the better search function, I thought I'd give it a bump since after the recent discussions about Beethoven symphonies, HIPP or Modern Orchestra - I have discovered that the decisions regarding tempo are what  signify the most crucial difference to my enjoyment of the recording.

And in order to achieve the quicker tempi, I think a smaller orchestra is needed - hence the recordings I enjoy the most, have been called "Hybrid" - which I have been told means a modern instrument orchestra, but with smaller numbers and utilizing quasi HIPP interpretive choices concerning tempo, dynamics and articulation.

Besides Jarvi and Dausgaard - are there any others who might fall into this style?

[Superhorn]

  The problem with metronome markings is that composers change their minds at times. They've been known to conduct or play their music at different tempi at different times because they felt differently about the tempi on different occaisions.
  Brahms was absolutely opposed to metronome markings, because he felt there was no such thing as one "right" tempo for any movement in any of his symphonies, concertos or other works.
  So the next time jolly Roger or other HIP people comes out with a theory about the "right" tempi for His music, you should be wary.
   Another factor can be the first recordings we get to know of a given work.
It's very easy to get accustomed to the tempi on that recording, and when you hear other versions of that piece, the tempi may seem wrong to you. This has happened to me quite a few times, but I've found that if you give repeated hearings to the other recordings, you can get accustomed to them,too.
 

[DavidRoss]

Besides Jarvi and Dausgaard - are there any others who might fall into this style?

Zinman, Harnoncourt, Vänskä, Abbado, Mackerras.

[Franco]

  The problem with metronome markings is that composers change their minds at times. They've been known to conduct or play their music at different tempi at different times because they felt differently about the tempi on different occaisions.
  Brahms was absolutely opposed to metronome markings, because he felt there was no such thing as one "right" tempo for any movement in any of his symphonies, concertos or other works.
  So the next time jolly Roger or other HIP people comes out with a theory about the "right" tempi for His music, you should be wary.
   Another factor can be the first recordings we get to know of a given work.
It's very easy to get accustomed to the tempi on that recording, and when you hear other versions of that piece, the tempi may seem wrong to you. This has happened to me quite a few times, but I've found that if you give repeated hearings to the other recordings, you can get accustomed to them,too.

I take your point - but in my reading of Beethoven, I get the impression tempo was a serious consideration, and besides, I am not interested so much in anyone trying to tell me what tempo is "correct" as much as someone playing the works with a tempo that I have found one I prefer, which is on the quicker side. 

And, coincidentally, this usually is closer to the printed marking.

[Franco]

Zinman, Harnoncourt, Vänskä, Abbado, Mackerras.

I'm guessing you mean the newer Abbado.  I have that one wishlisted, and I might get some of the Mackerras too, since I love his Mozart recordings (I have one opera and three or four PC with John O'Conor).  Vanksa's name keeps coming up, and I own nothing by him, so between Beethoven and Sibelius - I bet I will succumb to that siren song soon.

[DavidW]

I'm guessing you mean the newer Abbado.  I have that one wishlisted, and I might get some of the Mackerras too, since I love his Mozart recordings (I have one opera and three or four PC with John O'Conor).  Vanksa's name keeps coming up, and I own nothing by him, so between Beethoven and Sibelius - I bet I will succumb to that siren song soon.

To add to Dave's list there is also Rattle which is really not that bad.  But there is also Herreweghe and the second Norrington cycle (Stuttgart).  Out of the ones that I've heard I think that top marks go to Järvi and Harnoncourt.

[Brian]

Yes, he means Abbado in a red box ('the Rome cycle')

[DavidRoss]

Yes, he means Abbado in a red box ('the Rome cycle')

You bet--one of my faves!  Hope you're still enjoying it, Brian!

[Superhorn]

  Masur has recorded two Beethoven cycles for Philips; one analog and one digital; can you tell me which 9th of his you're referring to? I heard the digital remake recently when I borrowed it from my library and the tempi seemed unobjectionable to me. Overall, it seemed like a fine performance ot me, by a conductor who certainly knows his Beethoven.

[Bulldog]

I don't consider tempo a big deal.  It's what the performers do with their selected tempo that counts.