Bach cantatas and the arbitrary skirting profundity

[Sean]

Not sure whether it's worth posting this but wondering if anyone else has the experience of working through the enormous output of the cantatas and thinking that monster-brain Bach spent so much time writing them, rather than his more isolated sets of masterpieces, in order to access a kind of supra-aesthetic area: there's a weird effect where the relentless exploration of the expressive idiom reveals a trans-dimensional meaning- what I mean of course is that though in terms of individual works most of the music is not entirely first rate and memorable, overall the immensity of this man's mind transforms the somewhat arbitrary writing into a colossal aesthetic angle on reality and indeed the divine...

(I listen to music five times and was already familiar with a third of the cantatas before buying the Leusink, and now working my way through them all- I've done the seculars and 17 discs into the remaining 60 sacreds.)

[Szykneij]

I'm sure the number of cantatas Bach wrote has no relation to some "supra-aesthetic" motivation  During his career, Bach held a variety of positions as organist, teacher and/or composer in a variety of locations. The type of music he wrote and how much of it he composed was directly related to the position he held at any given period. Because he was required to compose at least one cantata for every Sunday and holiday while employed by the church at Leipzig (not to mention Weimar and Mühlhausen), his output in that area was, out of necessity, large. Considering he usually had only a week to write each cantata (while at the same time fullfilling his other job requirements), I'd be willing to cut him some slack if every one doesn't merit masterpiece status.

[Scarpia]

I'm sure the number of cantatas Bach wrote has no relation to some "supra-aesthetic" motivation  During his career, Bach held a variety of positions as organist, teacher and/or composer in a variety of locations. The type of music he wrote and how much of it he composed was directly related to the position he held at any given period. Because he was required to compose at least one cantata for every Sunday and holiday while employed by the church at Leipzig (not to mention Weimar and Mühlhausen), his output in that area was, out of necessity, large. Considering he usually had only a week to write each cantata (while at the same time fullfilling his other job requirements), I'd be willing to cut him some slack if every one doesn't merit masterpiece status.

Despite being a Bach nut, I have almost no interest in the Cantatas.  However, I've never been comfortable with the standard explanation that Bach had to write them.  Did all Kapelmeisters in those days write hundreds of Cantatas?  Was there no existing music that Bach could have performed?  What about all the Cantatas presumably written by Bach's predecessors?
 

[greg]

Despite being a Bach nut fan

...otherwise, I'm tempted to have an imagery of James being the "other" nut...

[The new erato]

Did all Kapelmeisters in those days write hundreds of Cantatas?   

In short: If your employer was a church - yes. They expected fresh produce, not like today where we recycle old.

[Sydney Grew]

Bach was the Shakespeare of music was he not.

[Harry]

Bach was the Shakespeare of music was he not.

[Sean]

Despite being a Bach nut, I have almost no interest in the Cantatas.  However, I've never been comfortable with the standard explanation that Bach had to write them.  Did all Kapelmeisters in those days write hundreds of Cantatas?  Was there no existing music that Bach could have performed?  What about all the Cantatas presumably written by Bach's predecessors?

Yes, these are my thoughts too; the idea of the individual work also only developed slowly over historical time.

[Spotswood]

In short: If your employer was a church - yes. They expected fresh produce, not like today where we recycle old.

Except that many of the so-called new cantatas recycled older material ...

[Sean]

Except that many of the so-called new cantatas recycled older material ...

Not so many...

[Chaszz]

I own the Leusink also and am not sure it is good enough to spend an inordinate amount of time listening to. I certainly do not have the kinds of aesthetic experiences I usually do with Bach, and am asking myself is it Bach or Leusink. The boys' choir seems barely adequate at times, and I cannot abide the alto soloist who happens to be male, just don't like his voice quality. And I kind of have an image of them all grinding thru them one after another. Any other opinions on this set?

[Sean]

I own the Leusink also and am not sure it is good enough to spend an inordinate amount of time listening to. I certainly do not have the kinds of aesthetic experiences I usually do with Bach, and am asking myself is it Bach or Leusink. The boys' choir seems barely adequate at times, and I cannot abide the alto soloist who happens to be male, just don't like his voice quality. And I kind of have an image of them all grinding thru them one after another. Any other opinions on this set?

Hello Chaszz, well I'm not so keen on the mezzo or whatever she is, who often sounds like she's singing Weber or something much later; there isn't the gravitas of the DG archive recordings but I really think the chamber scorings are the right was to proceed with this repertory and Leusink is a committed interpreter and often quite in the zone, finding real weird Bachian inwardness. It's a set I'm happy to invest time in, though I only bought it to swat down on the cantata cycle that I haven't yet explored, so I can develop a proper perspective on this huge body of music.

I expect you're saying the cantatas don't have the level of inspiration of the major choral works, and there's no doubt about it. However I think a kind of supra or overall majesty and mind-bending aesthetic content begins to emerge through Bach's endless exploration of his chosen expressive world: there are distantly similar examples with the Scarlatti sonatas and other large cycles of works through the renaissance to classical, along with the comparable narrowly defined painting cycles of Monet, Cezanne or Rothko.

[nigeld]

Despite being a Bach nut, I have almost no interest in the Cantatas.  However, I've never been comfortable with the standard explanation that Bach had to write them.  Did all Kapelmeisters in those days write hundreds of Cantatas?  Was there no existing music that Bach could have performed?  What about all the Cantatas presumably written by Bach's predecessors?
 

I'm not sure we should be too worried about the motivation for composing detracting from the quality of the art.

Very few great artists have not required financial support be they painter, playwright or composer and most great works were composed in response to some patron or other requiring it done.

I suppose following that mindset the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is just the work of a jobbing interior decorator, but then again.......


I am interested in the idea of the body of work versus the individual piece.  I find that the Bach Cantatas in particular do reward prolonged listening (over many years).  Bach's work can be characterised as earnestly Lutheran and serious, certainly,  but with an over-riding desire to recognise the glory of God and to reflect that to the listener.  I am not sure that "spirit" comes across in individual pieces, but it certainly does come through to me in the whole body of work with all its diversity and originality.

Music to bring health to your spirit (IMHO)

[jochanaan]

By all reports, Bach really believed in God, so there's no reason to think he believed his work for the Church to be merely "made to order."  Yes, the form expected was fairly well set--a few choruses, arias, and connecting recitatives, ending with the obligatory chorale (probably including congregational singing; these were for church services, after all)--but within those strictures, his art is flawless.  I have sung BWV 4 and played English horn for BWV 6, and they're both masterful works.  I was especially impressed with how Bach handles the two oboes and English horn (originally oboe da caccia) in the first chorus of BWV 6; somehow the phrases he writes for them meld into extremely beautiful tone combinations.

[Sean]

By all reports, Bach really believed in God, so there's no reason to think he believed his work for the Church to be merely "made to order."  Yes, the form expected was fairly well set--a few choruses, arias, and connecting recitatives, ending with the obligatory chorale (probably including congregational singing; these were for church services, after all)--but within those strictures, his art is flawless.  I have sung BWV 4 and played English horn for BWV 6, and they're both masterful works.  I was especially impressed with how Bach handles the two oboes and English horn (originally oboe da caccia) in the first chorus of BWV 6; somehow the phrases he writes for them meld into extremely beautiful tone combinations.

Bach is one of the greatest if not the greatest products of the history of the West. I recently beheld the sight of the published scores of the cantatas- several shelves, an immense task even to write them out.

[Chaszz]

Bach is one of the greatest if not the greatest products of the history of the West. I recently beheld the sight of the published scores of the cantatas- several shelves, an immense task even to write them out.

I think that after a couple of years or so at Leipzig he had finished the cantata cycle, and thereafter could throttle back a bit. Unless I'm mistaken. But as far as immense tasks, I cannot conceive how this man did everything on his plate at Leipzig. Just as far as writing went, he was writing out multiple parts continually also, even with some help from other people. Teaching Latin to bratty middle-school-aged pupils (until in later years he paid someone else to do this); arguing with school, church and town officials, collaborating with Picander and other poets when writing cantatas both sacred and secular, rehearsing cantatas every week whether previously composed or not, fathering and helping raise a huge family, teaching his own children instruments and singing including composing excercises for them, church-going, drinking (a hefty wine-bill exists), buying for and maintaining a music store including scores and instruments, traveling to test and advise on keyboard instruments as he was a leading expert on harpsichords, claviers and organs, obviously reading in and meditating over the Bible, and finding time among all this activity to write masterpieces like the B-Minor Mass (admittedly made largely from cantata movements, but still a mighty endeavor), the Passions, motets, Oratorios, Magnificat, Lutheran masses and other off-agenda works, compared to later composers many of whom merely composed. (I am leaving out the many works written for and other tasks for the Collegium Musicum in later years because by this time he was largely inactive at school and church.) I feel that in addition to being arguably the greatest Western composer he is arguably one of the the greatest examples of the Protestant work ethic.

[Sean]

Sure thing Chaszz,  good stuff...