The future of your music collection?

[Que]

  Hello all, I figured I'd report back with an update.  Given my lack of experience and knowledge with various softwares that rip music from CDs I have decided to take the path of least resistance for now and stick with Apple itunes.  For the past 4 days I have been ripping my CD music collection in Apple Lossless format using itunes.  I have completely ripped 50 CDs (some operas and symphonies) out of my 450 CD collection!  It is taking a long time (about 10 minutes), too long but I shall persevere.  With my operas I have decided to join the CD tracks before importing which is very time consuming but I think in the end worth it- yes I won't be able to skip tracks to my liking but better that than those dreadful gaps between tracks which would seriously ruin Verdi and Wagner's operas.  For the handful of ripped symphonies I ripped each movement separately.  Haven't quite decided what I want to do with my concerti collection (piano, violin, harpsichord etc.) nor Bach's cantatas, passions and oratorios. I am thinking of joining the tracks as I did with the operas. 
  I can't believe that I have finally and officially joined the digital technology.  Finally I have been visiting the Apple store frequently, familiarizing myself with their ipods and have decided to buy an one (I am looking at either the ipod video or the new ipod touch- the GB memory after all my music is ripped will be the determining factor). I will be going to France for Christmas and my target is to carry all my music with me in one compact player on that trip!!  Imagine no more having to carry bulky CDs, worrying about them getting scratched or damaged, I won't even need to carry a CD player anymore.  I think I have taken the right decision to safeguard the future of my music collection.  I don't know why I waited so long to do this!

  marvin     

Marvin, one thing: Apple's iTunes and iPods play gapless nowadays. There are other considerations to join tracks - I find the files easier to organise and to select music on my iPod, and I don't have to skip within a concerto or string quartet, for instance - but no need to join tracks to accomplish gapless playing! (just tick "gapless album" in the file info).

Q

[marvinbrown]

Marvin, one thing: Apple's iTunes and iPods play gapless nowadays. There are other considerations to join tracks - I find the files easier to organise and to select music on my iPod, and I don't have to skip within a concerto or string quartet, for instance - but no need to join tracks to accomplish gapless playing! (just tick "gapless album" in the file info).

Q

  Thanks Que, another GMG member just sent me a PM to inform me as well that the new ipods play gapless.  I shall refrain from joining the tracks with operas (especially with Mozart's operas)  because I like the idea of having to skip tracks or replay those I am particularly keen on.  But then again you do have a good point that joining tracks makes organizing the music easier.  Its nice to have the option though of doing either.  Finally I just finished ripping another 15 cds today ....and as the American poet Robert Frost once wrote........ (I have) miles to go before I sleep and miles to go before I sleep!

  marvin

[Mark]

Marvin, welcome to now.

Wanted to point out something which crops ups again and again when people ask about what iTunes and iPods can and can't do. If you choose to install iTunes (and I choose not to, for personal reasons that include its bloatedness, my hatred of all things 'white', and the fact that I simply don't like the GUI), then the ONLY DAPs (Digital Audio Players, to give iPods and their ilk their correct terminology) that you can use with this software are those from the iPod family. However, you CAN import and playback a number of different file formats using iTunes - a lot of people seem to think you're restricted to AAC (which is NOT, incidentally, an Apple proprietary format, but an open standard), Apple Lossless of AIFF (an equivalent to PCM WAV). MP3s will work just dandy in iTunes, and any WMA files you own can be transcoded into AAC format - although lossy to lossy transcoding is the epitomy of digital audio heresy in the ears of some purists.

As for iPods themselves, yes, it's true they ONLY work with iTunes (another reason I choose not to buy one, however much I want their capacity to play back MP3s gaplessly; other reasons include what I and others consider to be their inferior, allegedly 'flat' response, harsh and uninvolving presentation, even with good cans and EQ switched off - Creative products whip the iPod's ass here, with their slightly warm but ultimately very natural soundstage and highly impressive S/N ratio of almost 97% - and coarseness at the treble end), whereas a lot of other DAPs work across a wide range of media players, making them more versatile; and many are also drag 'n' drop devices, eliminating altogether the reliance on software for music transfers - Cowon's iAudio range being just one excellent example.

The only things I'll credit the iPod with are a smart interface (stolen from Creative, as a recent, out-of-court settlement between the two companies confirms ), the clickwheel - a genuine design classic - and their impressively powerful headphone amp stage, which has guts enough to drive more demanding headphones than can most DAPs.

But when all's said and done (and as much as I genuinely wish I could join the iPod crowd, if only I could satisfy myself sufficiently that Apple could meet all the requirements I'm looking for in a DAP), I'll take a Creative player any day.

[marvinbrown]

Marvin, welcome to now.

Wanted to point out something which crops ups again and again when people ask about what iTunes and iPods can and can't do. If you choose to install iTunes (and I choose not to, for personal reasons that include its bloatedness, my hatred of all things 'white', and the fact that I simply don't like the GUI), then the ONLY DAPs (Digital Audio Players, to give iPods and their ilk their correct terminology) that you can use with this software are those from the iPod family. However, you CAN import and playback a number of different file formats using iTunes - a lot of people seem to think you're restricted to AAC (which is NOT, incidentally, an Apple proprietary format, but an open standard), Apple Lossless of AIFF (an equivalent to PCM WAV). MP3s will work just dandy in iTunes, and any WMA files you own can be transcoded into AAC format - although lossy to lossy transcoding is the epitomy of digital audio heresy in the ears of some purists.

As for iPods themselves, yes, it's true they ONLY work with iTunes (another reason I choose not to buy one, however much I want their capacity to play back MP3s gaplessly; other reasons include what I and others consider to be their inferior, allegedly 'flat' response, harsh and uninvolving presentation, even with good cans and EQ switched off - Creative products whip the iPod's ass here, with their slightly warm but ultimately very natural soundstage and highly impressive S/N ratio of almost 97% - and coarseness at the treble end), whereas a lot of other DAPs work across a wide range of media players, making them more versatile; and many are also drag 'n' drop devices, eliminating altogether the reliance on software for music transfers - Cowon's iAudio range being just one excellent example.

The only things I'll credit the iPod with are a smart interface (stolen from Creative, as a recent, out-of-court settlement between the two companies confirms ), the clickwheel - a genuine design classic - and their impressively powerful headphone amp stage, which has guts enough to drive more demanding headphones than can most DAPs.

But when all's said and done (and as much as I genuinely wish I could join the iPod crowd, if only I could satisfy myself sufficiently that Apple could meet all the requirements I'm looking for in a DAP), I'll take a Creative player any day.

  Hello Mark.  I just want to clarify a few things if I may as I am getting a little bit confused here and please pardon my ignorance.  You say that AAC is not an Apple proprietary format, am I correct in assuming then that any mp3 player will play AAC format music files? (I have been importing my music  into Apple Lossless format which  I assume is proprietary but I can always go back to AAC if need be).

  My second question if you would be kind enough to further clarify is: you say that Apple ipods only work with itunes, does this mean that non-Apple mp3 players will NOT work with itunes? If that is the case then am I correct in assuming that I will have to drag n' drop files from itunes to a non-Apple mp3 player to get the music files transfered provided of course that they are in AAC format or any other non-proprietary Apple format?

  Finally, if I choose to purchase from the Apple itunes store I gather this would pose a problem if I have a non-Apple mp3 player even if I pick n' drop the files as that music is protected?? 

  marvin

[Mark]

  Hello Mark.  I just want to clarify a few things if I may as I am getting a little bit confused here and please pardon my ignorance.  You say that AAC is not an Apple proprietary format, am I correct in assuming then that any mp3 player will play AAC format music files? (I have been importing my music  into Apple Lossless format which  I assume is proprietary but I can always go back to AAC if need be).

  My second question if you would be kind enough to further clarify is: you say that Apple ipods only work with itunes, does this mean that non-Apple mp3 players will NOT work with itunes? If that is the case then am I correct in assuming that I will have to drag n' drop files from itunes to a non-Apple mp3 player to get the music files transfered provided of course that they are in AAC format or any other non-proprietary Apple format?

  Finally, if I choose to purchase from the Apple itunes store I gather this would pose a problem if I have a non-Apple mp3 player even if I pick n' drop the files as that music is protected?? 

  marvin

AAC is a format that can be decoded (i.e. played back) using devices and media players other than (but as well as) iPods and iTunes, respectively. I believe I'm right in asserting that Panasonic and Sony have made devices (including mobile phones, in the case of the later, and in partnership with Ericsson) which can handle AAC. Some other media players also handle AAC, though I'm not sure if they do this with files downloaded from iTunes Music Store, as these have Apple's proprietary copy control system, Fair Play, encoded into them. I'm not sure if ripping to Apple Lossless adds any copy controls - someone else will need to answer this.

As to the question about iPods working exclusively with iTunes, yes, this is the case, I'm afraid. Apple won't enable iPods to work with any other media players (anti-competitive, IMO, but no surprise there). In terms of your question about dragging and dropping from iTunes to a different media player, this isn't exactly how the process works. If you've ripped to Apple Lossless, then you can ONLY use iTunes to listen to these tracks, or transfer them to your iPod. Apple Lossless limits you to iTunes, period. However, when using a format like MP3 (which is universal), you can choose from a dizzying array of media players, and all you do is get them to search your computer for music files and they each build a database (usually called a 'library') of the tracks they find, so that when you launch a particular media player, it will (in effect) 'link to' and play whichever file or files you choose to hear. The same principle applies to iTunes, I should add. So what I'm saying is that no media player actually stores your tracks: they simple build databases telling them where to look music files on your computer.

Your final question (if I comprehend it correctly) is simple enough to answer: if you buy music from iTunes Music Store, or rip to Apple Lossless, then you're stuck with using an iPod. These files won't (AFAIK) play back on the vast majority of non-iPod DAPs. Whereas Microsoft's proprietary format, WMA (with and without DRM), will play back on a great number of players (though it's a power-hungry format that guzzles battery life).

Does this help at all?

[marvinbrown]

AAC is a format that can be decoded (i.e. played back) using devices and media players other than (but as well as) iPods and iTunes, respectively. I believe I'm right in asserting that Panasonic and Sony have made devices (including mobile phones, in the case of the later, and in partnership with Ericsson) which can handle AAC. Some other media players also handle AAC, though I'm not sure if they do this with files downloaded from iTunes Music Store, as these have Apple's proprietary copy control system, Fair Play, encoded into them. I'm not sure if ripping to Apple Lossless adds any copy controls - someone else will need to answer this.

As to the question about iPods working exclusively with iTunes, yes, this is the case, I'm afraid. Apple won't enable iPods to work with any other media players (anti-competitive, IMO, but no surprise there). In terms of your question about dragging and dropping from iTunes to a different media player, this isn't exactly how the process works. If you've ripped to Apple Lossless, then you can ONLY use iTunes to listen to these tracks, or transfer them to your iPod. Apple Lossless limits you to iTunes, period. However, when using a format like MP3 (which is universal), you can choose from a dizzying array of media players, and all you do is get them to search your computer for music files and they each build a database (usually called a 'library') of the tracks they find, so that when you launch a particular media player, it will (in effect) 'link to' and play whichever file or files you choose to hear. The same principle applies to iTunes, I should add. So what I'm saying is that no media player actually stores your tracks: they simple build databases telling them where to look music files on your computer.

Your final question (if I comprehend it correctly) is simple enough to answer: if you buy music from iTunes Music Store, or rip to Apple Lossless, then you're stuck with using an iPod. These files won't (AFAIK) play back on the vast majority of non-iPod DAPs. Whereas Microsoft's proprietary format, WMA (with and without DRM), will play back on a great number of players (though it's a power-hungry format that guzzles battery life).

Does this help at all?

  Yes Mark and thank you I have found the explanation above most helpfull.  In your response that I have highlighted in bold, did you mean to say that Apple will not enable iPods or iTunes??to interact with other media players??
In that case a universal mp3 music in iTunes will not be recognized by a non-Apple (iPod) DAP.
You have comprehended my final question regarding the iTunes Music store correctly and would like to thank you for your response.

  marvin

[Mark]

  Yes Mark and thank you I have found the explanation above most helpfull.  In your response that I have highlighted in bold, did you mean to say that Apple will not enable iPods or iTunes??to interact with other media players??
In that case a universal mp3 music in iTunes will not be recognized by a non-Apple (iPod) DAP.
You have comprehended my final question regarding the iTunes Music store correctly and would like to thank you for your response.

  marvin

Marvin, media players don't generally talk to each other, and MP3 is a universal format - it's not dependent on ANY media player. So basically, if you create an MP3 with iTunes, it'll still be universally useable. But iTunes as a program doesn't need to and won't talk to any other media players (by which I mean the software programs, not the DAPs, which are the hardware - i.e. iPods, et al ). What you need to grasp is that a file format that's universal - like MP3, to give just a single example - isn't 'tied in' to ANY media player or DAP. Apple Lossless, however, IS tied exclusively to Apple, and by extension, to iTunes and the iPod family.

I appreciate it can be difficult to fathom when you're new to it all.

[marvinbrown]

Marvin, media players don't generally talk to each other, and MP3 is a universal format - it's not dependent on ANY media player. So basically, if you create an MP3 with iTunes, it'll still be universally useable. But iTunes as a program doesn't need to and won't talk to any other media players (by which I mean the software programs, not the DAPs, which are the hardware - i.e. iPods, et al ). What you need to grasp is that a file format that's universal - like MP3, to give just a single example - isn't 'tied in' to ANY media player or DAP. Apple Lossless, however, IS tied exclusively to Apple, and by extension, to iTunes and the iPod family.

I appreciate it can be difficult to fathom when you're new to it all.

  Thanks Mark  .

  marvin

[Mark]

  Thanks Mark  .

  marvin

My pleasure, Marvin. Hope you make the best decision for you.

[Daverz]

How do you guys go about keeping track of what you've ripped?  I've been enthusiastically ripping for a few days and the result is a mess.  Just Mahler alone is under Mahler, G. Mahler, Gustav Mahler, Mahler Gustav, etc.  Some things have artist info, some don't.  So it seems I can't rely on the online info at all, which adds considerable work if I have to edit it for each disc.

[Mark]

How do you guys go about keeping track of what you've ripped?  I've been enthusiastically ripping for a few days and the result is a mess.  Just Mahler alone is under Mahler, G. Mahler, Gustav Mahler, Mahler Gustav, etc.  Some things have artist info, some don't.  So it seems I can't rely on the online info at all, which adds considerable work if I have to edit it for each disc.

Tragically, there's no easy solution (at least, not one I've found). This is why I manually retag EVERYTHING ... including filenames. Let me give you a quick example.

I download Beethoven's Third Symphony (LSO label/Wyn Morris conducting), and I rename all the files so they go like this:

01_LSO_Beethoven_Symphony_No_3
02_LSO_Beethoven_Symphony_No_3
03_LSO_Beethoven_Symphony_No_3
04_LSO_Beethoven_Symphony_No_3

... and so on. Next, I use a retagger program (eMusic Tag Editor from Abyss Audio), and batch-edit all the tags. I include the composer's surname, put ALL artists featured on the WHOLE recording against EVERY track on the album in question (even if they didn't perform on a specific track - I do this to prevent duplicate entries in media players which catalogue by artist instead of by album ), add the label name to the comment field, choose one of four titles for the genre field (classical is just too generic, so I go with Orchestral, Instrumental, Vocal and Chamber), rename the album title using the following convention:

BEETHOVEN: Symphony No. 3 'Eroica' (LSO)*

... and finally, rename the individual tracks thus:

Beethoven - Symphony No. 3 'Eroica': I
Beethoven - Symphony No. 3 'Eroica': II
Beethoven - Symphony No. 3 'Eroica': III
Beethoven - Symphony No. 3 'Eroica': IV

That's it (other than to check that the track numbering is correct - essential for accurate playback on devices and in media players ). Yes, it's long-winded, and yes, it misses out a shitload of detail (I never bother with tempi indications; what's the point, when I want to listen, not read?). I also NEVER include the year ... a fact sure to shock some. But there's good reason for this. I can never decide which year to include: year of recording, year of remastering, year of release, year of reissue ... it just goes on. And besides, there's often no way of telling exactly when a recording was made/remastered/released/reissued.

So, there in a nutshell is my system. And it works beautifully, even if I do say so myself.




*What happens when there's more than one recording of a work on the same label? I add on the conductor/performer(s) to the filename and album title field.

[Lethevich]

How do you guys go about keeping track of what you've ripped?  I've been enthusiastically ripping for a few days and the result is a mess.  Just Mahler alone is under Mahler, G. Mahler, Gustav Mahler, Mahler Gustav, etc.  Some things have artist info, some don't.  So it seems I can't rely on the online info at all, which adds considerable work if I have to edit it for each disc.

What Mark said: consistency demands doing it manually, unfortunately. It's much easier if you rip as you buy, but doing an entire collection at once will be a pain - but in the end, worth it - providing it's all backed up, so that even a PC-death won't require you to do it over.

[Mark]

Of course, if you have the money, there's always Fortuna.

[marvinbrown]

How do you guys go about keeping track of what you've ripped?  I've been enthusiastically ripping for a few days and the result is a mess.  Just Mahler alone is under Mahler, G. Mahler, Gustav Mahler, Mahler Gustav, etc.  Some things have artist info, some don't.  So it seems I can't rely on the online info at all, which adds considerable work if I have to edit it for each disc.

 Like Mark I have been tagging my ripped music manually as well.  I am not logged on to the internet as I am importing my music so I am not interfacing with any database.  But then again I have been joining the tracks of some of my CDs, the net outcome is one continuous track which is easier to tag (this works best for operas).  I have stopped doing this now and subsequently this has added more work- it is a necessary evil but it has to be done in order to have your music properly organized- otherwise it's a mess!  Also I agree with Lethe one should rip as they buy which I have not done and now I am paying the price for it  .

 marvin

[Renfield]

What Mark said: consistency demands doing it manually, unfortunately. It's much easier if you rip as you buy, but doing an entire collection at once will be a pain - but in the end, worth it - providing it's all backed up, so that even a PC-death won't require you to do it over.

Indeed. And speaking from the prespective of someone who's ripped literally hundreds of CDs over the past week alone (catching up in synchronising my digital collection with my material one), paying careful attention to every single ripped track is a must.

For doing it less "painfully" than otherwise, I do recommend iTunes: in fact, it's one of the main reasons I use it (and ALAC, instead of FLAC) myself, my two iPods aside.

So I can proudly say that I currently have more than 320 GB of ripped music in lossless format, complete with composer, performer and track details (often the release year as well, when I can be bothered), fully accessible. And the internet helps as well, in giving more-or-less correct track/composer/performer info more often than not.

(Though I do edit almost all such "tags" to meet my standards, very easily via iTunes.)

[Mark]

It's much easier if you rip as you buy ...

Wish I'd begun doing this three years ago. My collection is now beyond the point at which I can face ripping everything, so I tend to keep downloads and CDs separate, as I believe I said earlier in this thread.

[Mark]

... I currently have more than 320 GB of ripped music ...

I have about a tenth of that on my PC.

[Renfield]

I have about a tenth of that on my PC.

Well, I rip in lossless: the files are big. If I whistled into a microphone, recorded that into a CD and then ripped it in lossless, even that file would be big.

(Still, it's about all of my non-operatic collection, those 320GB. )

[marvinbrown]

Well, I rip in lossless: the files are big. If I whistled into a microphone, recorded that into a CD and then ripped it in lossless, even that file would be big.

(Still, it's about all of my non-operatic collection, those 320GB. )

  And what of your operetic collection Renfield- do you have one?  If yes how have you ripped those CDs?  Did you join the tracks and import each CD as one continuous track?

   marvin

[Renfield]

  And what of your operetic collection Renfield- do you have one?  If yes how have you ripped those CDs?  Did you join the tracks and import each CD as one continuous track?

   marvin

My modest operatic collection, Marvin, remains mostly un-ripped.

However, when I do rip it, I will likely follow my usual method of importing via iTunes, thus in separate tracks, and tagging them for "gapless" playback.