VERDI King of Italian Opera

Started by marvinbrown, April 20, 2007, 12:50:59 PM

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marvinbrown

#100
Quote from: Anne on November 01, 2007, 05:54:10 PM
Marv,

I just wanted to tell you I replied to your Falstaff post that you wrote yesterday.



  Yes Anne thank you I received it and read it, I did not want to hijack that thread and turn it into a Bernstein Falstaff  thread.  But I am so glad you mentioned it so I am going to respond here because after all this is a Verdi thread .  First of all I am very impressed with your knowledge of Flastaff.  You were discusing the Bernstein recording and how you studied it in depth.  You refer to the fact that on the Bernstein recording you can hear Fenton's voice distinctly as the men and women choruses sing to each other. I replayed the Abbado recording of Falstaff last night, skipping to get to all the parts that included Fenton and choruses, I was able to locate two such parts, the first being at the end of the opera.  I can not claim to be able to hear his voice distinctly.  The second part I could find where Fenton is involved with a group of men and women singing to each other is Act 2, Part 2 (A room in Ford's house) where Falstaff has been hidden in a laundry basket and Ford with a group of men are frantically searching for him suspecting him to be with Ford's wife, Alice,  behind the screen only to discover Fenton with Nannetta. A commotion erupts and Fenton's voice is not very distinct there either.  From what you are telling me Fenton's voice and role seemed to have some significance to Bernstein that other conductors chose not to highlight.

  Anne if I have misunderstood which scenes you were referring to in your post please correct me accordingly- a masterpiece like Falstaff deserves repeated listenings  :).


  PS: Mark has locked that Berstein thread where you and I started discussing Bernstein's Falstaff, lets carry on the discussion here  :).

  marvin     

Harry

#101
I am simply amazed how people can like opera so much.
Where ever I dip into the subject matter, it gives me the creeps.
That is not a normal reaction, but maybe I have some forgotten trauma, who knows?
Still I admire the tenacity in which people immerse themselves into the tribulations of such composers.
Carry on Marvin, I love reading your contributions, especially the ones about Wagner.
Are you aware of the fact that Siegfried Wagner also wrote a lot of operas?
I have all his orchestral music, but I will not approach his operas, maybe you will, and tell me...all about it?

marvinbrown

Quote from: Harry on November 02, 2007, 02:44:22 AM
I am simply amazed how people can like opera so much.
Where ever I dip into the subject matter, it gives me the creeps.
That is not a normal reaction, but maybe I have some forgotten trauma, who knows?
Still I admire the tenacity it which people emerge themselves into the tribulations of such composers.
Carry on Marvin, I love reading your contributions, especially the ones about Wagner.
Are you aware of the fact that Siegfried Wagner also wrote a lot of operas?
I have all his orchestral music, but I will not approach his operas, maybe you will, and tell me...all about it?


  Hello Harry, your post got me thinking: Which Verdi opera would I recommend to someone who is struggling with this genre of music.  La Traviata came to mind first, but then I remembered that the soprano voice is an issue with you.  This got me thinking: why do Harry and others struggle to get into opera.  One possible explanation has to do with the type of music that you find appealing.  From what I can tell from your posts, as far as vocal work is concerned, you tend to prefer vocal works from the pre-classical period and a powerful soprano voice is an issue with you.  Verdi and Wagner are ROMANTIC opera composers, they put very heavy demands on the voices of their singers which inevitably will lead to a high pitched powerful soprano voice in their music.  I was going to recommend that you start with the operas of Mozart (operas from the Classical era) and work your way through to Verdi's operas, but, you already tried Mozart's operas and your response was not positive.  So where do we go from here..........

  I think the best thing to do right now is to pick a romantic opera (not necessarily VERDI and I seriously think you should avoid Wagner for now) that has beautiful melodies, catchy tunes (something that you can hum after you are done listening to it).  Of Verdi Rigoletto comes to mind  I am more than certain that you have heard the very popular tune of "La Donne E Mobile".  But there is a better candidate out there and that is BIZET's CARMEN. Harry,  have you heard Carmen?  I am recommending this opera to you because it is one of the very few operas that my father, who doesn't really like opera, enjoys.  I think this is worth a try Harry, the music is very accessible and memorable.  If you respond well to Carmen, you can try Verdi's Rigoletto next. If somebody else in this forum has a better candidate (Verdi or otherwise) to recommend to Harry please come forward-  lets see if we all can help Harry make some progress in the opera field.

  PS: I am not familar with any of Siegfried Wagner's music, I will have to look into this.

  marvin   

Expresso


Ι had a problem with operas when i started listening to classical music. I can't say there's a standard way for someone to start liking opera. It depends on what the listener wants to hear from the music he's subjected to.

The first opera i ever liked was Strauss's Salome, not something that i could recommend to opera beginners though ;). I also liked Stravinsky's Oidepus Rex, Beethoven's Fidelio, Purcell's Dido and Aeneas, Handel's operas and some from Vivaldi.
Maybe some of those baroque operas would be a good start for someone.

I still don't like some of Mozart's operas, even if i can see what makes them so special and important. Also operas like Carmen sound a bit light to me.

Anne

One of the ways to get into opera is to find a singer you like and then pick operas where that singer is singing.

I loved Pavarotti's voice and acquired any opera he sang.  That method really worked for me.

If Harry has a female voice he likes, he could get operas she sings.

Marv, I am going out of town today and have preparations to make.  I will reply to the Falstaff on Monday or Tuesday.

Harry

Quote from: marvinbrown on November 02, 2007, 03:56:04 AM
  Hello Harry, your post got me thinking: Which Verdi opera would I recommend to someone who is struggling with this genre of music.  La Traviata came to mind first, but then I remembered that the soprano voice is an issue with you.  This got me thinking: why do Harry and others struggle to get into opera.  One possible explanation has to do with the type of music that you find appealing.  From what I can tell from your posts, as far as vocal work is concerned, you tend to prefer vocal works from the pre-classical period and a powerful soprano voice is an issue with you.  Verdi and Wagner are ROMANTIC opera composers, they put very heavy demands on the voices of their singers which inevitably will lead to a high pitched powerful soprano voice in their music.  I was going to recommend that you start with the operas of Mozart (operas from the Classical era) and work your way through to Verdi's operas, but, you already tried Mozart's operas and your response was not positive.  So where do we go from here..........

  I think the best thing to do right now is to pick a romantic opera (not necessarily VERDI and I seriously think you should avoid Wagner for now) that has beautiful melodies, catchy tunes (something that you can hum after you are done listening to it).  Of Verdi Rigoletto comes to mind  I am more than certain that you have heard the very popular tune of "La Donne E Mobile".  But there is a better candidate out there and that is BIZET's CARMEN. Harry,  have you heard Carmen?  I am recommending this opera to you because it is one of the very few operas that my father, who doesn't really like opera, enjoys.  I think this is worth a try Harry, the music is very accessible and memorable.  If you respond well to Carmen, you can try Verdi's Rigoletto next. If somebody else in this forum has a better candidate (Verdi or otherwise) to recommend to Harry please come forward-  lets see if we all can help Harry make some progress in the opera field.

  PS: I am not familar with any of Siegfried Wagner's music, I will have to look into this.

  marvin   

I will try to find a Carmen, with a voice that I like, and see what comes of it.
Thank you Marvin for your concern.... :)

bhodges

Quote from: Harry on November 02, 2007, 08:08:09 AM
I will try to find a Carmen, with a voice that I like, and see what comes of it.
Thank you Marvin for your concern.... :)

Harry, you might try to see this DVD from Glyndebourne, with Haitink and the LPO, starring Maria Ewing.  I can't tell whether or not you'll go for her voice--personally, I like her acting better than her singing--but the production, by Peter Hall, is sensational.  And further, Carmen is not one of my favorites, but I thoroughly enjoyed this production. 

--Bruce

Harry

Yes interesting Bruce, I was just searching on the net, and singled this one out as a possible...... ;D

bhodges

Quote from: Harry on November 02, 2007, 08:21:29 AM
Yes interesting Bruce, I was just searching on the net, and singled this one out as a possible...... ;D

It's fantastic.  The only question mark is Maria Ewing.  I totally recognize that voices are a very personal thing, so I have no idea whether you'd like her or not.  But even if she's not ideal, I think you'd go for the production, as well as Haitink's great work with the London Philharmonic. 

--Bruce

marvinbrown



  I figured its about time I bumped this thread!  While organizing my Verdi collection yesterday I noticed that I only had 10 Verdi operas in my collection  :o.  I thought there would be a lot more but there they were:

  1) Aida
  2) Otello
  3) Rigoletto
  4) La Traviata
  5) Il Trovatore
  6) Une Ballo in Maschera
  7) Simon Boccanegra
  8 ) Flastaff
  9) Don Carlo
10) La Forza del Destino

  I have heard Macbeth and Nabucco but I did not like them as much as those 10 listed above. What about Luisa Miller? I Lombardi? Ernani? which of these 3 operas are the most lyrical or in the league of say Rigoletto?

  marvin   

Wendell_E

#110
Quote from: marvinbrown on November 21, 2007, 05:50:51 AM

  I have heard Macbeth and Nabucco but I did not like them as much as those 10 listed above. What about Luisa Miller? I Lombardi? Ernani? which of these 3 operas are the most lyrical or in the league of say Rigoletto?
 

I'd say Luisa Miller.  I like the Decca recording with Pavarotti, Caballé, and Milnes, Maag conducting and the Met DVD with Scotto, Domingo, Milnes, Levine conducting.  I've also heard good things about the RCA recording with Moffo, but I only heard it in a copy I checked out of the library back in the '70s, before I'd "seen the light" on Verdi.

I've got all 28 Verdi operas on CD, plus the original versions of Macbeth and Simon Boccanegra (I need to get the original Forza).  I just rented Vienna State Opera production of  the original Don Carlos from Netflix.  Odd production (Posa's Pizza has really fast delivery  ;D), but I'll probably end up buying it.  It sticks to the Urtext (the opera as it went into rehearsals, before they started making cuts for time), unlike the Pappano version, which "mixes and matches" from various versions.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." ― Mark Twain

Hector

Luisa Miller.

The others, fine as they are, are a bit rumpty-tum!

Anne

I really like Ernani with Domingo and Mirella Freni.

Tsaraslondon

Quote from: Anne on November 21, 2007, 07:19:55 AM
I really like Ernani with Domingo and Mirella Freni.

And there is also the excellent RCA version, conducted by Schippers, with Leontyne Price and Carlo Bergonzi.
\"A beautiful voice is not enough.\" Maria Callas

marvinbrown



  Its settled then...Luisa Miller it shall be for now.  Found the MET Levine DVD recording on amazon.co.uk and ordered it.  I think I'll go for Ernani next.

  marvin

marvinbrown

Quote from: Hector on November 21, 2007, 06:54:16 AM
Luisa Miller.

The others, fine as they are, are a bit rumpty-tum!

  Hector when you say the others are a bit "rumpty-tum" you mean lack of melodic lyrical music?  Or do you mean that the music doesn't flow as well as it does in say La Forza or Rigoletto?

  marvin

Hector

Quote from: marvinbrown on November 21, 2007, 11:42:17 AM
  Hector when you say the others are a bit "rumpty-tum" you mean lack of melodic lyrical music?  Or do you mean that the music doesn't flow as well as it does in say La Forza or Rigoletto?

  marvin

Not lacking in melody but very often four square or 3 in 4 rhythmically and quite crudely orchestrated, at times. Many an orchestral tutti underlines the vocal line or makes a dramatic point.

Personally, I find Verdi's early operas exciting but a bit samey, although short and they do rattle-along apace. Rarely a dull moment. Try the old Caballe/Levine/EMI recording of Giovanna d'Arco or Attila on Philips for prime examples of what I mean by rumpty-tum!

Mozart

I think I will be done with Aida and Il Trovatore this week and I am ready for my next Verdi opera. Which should I go for? The only one I have a dvd for is Don Carlo, I tried to watch it once and got pretty bored. So the options are:

Don Carlo (x2)
Luisa Miller
Nabucco
Un Ballo in Maschera (x2)
Falstaff (x2)
Simon Boccanegra
Macbeth

Either that or reccomend me another to get. The other 2 I have loved are La Traviata and Rigoletto.

Brian

#118
Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on December 05, 2007, 08:32:57 PM
Un Ballo in Maschera (x2)
Falstaff (x2)
Saw Un Ballo en Maschera a few months ago. Impressive, though I didn't really think it was particularly memorable music, but I only heard it once. Creepy love scene in the shadow of a guillotine. Terrific final ball, King Riccardo takes forever to die. Ewa Podles was in it, though, so great performance.

I heard the first 15 minutes of the Naxos Falstaff, and was frankly enthralled. Really amazing dramatic stuff, terrific "hook" into an opera - and the performance was huge, too.



(Will Humburg is a terrific conductor)

Mozart

I really could never see an opera live to which I didn't already know the music, unless maybe it was baroque. It's why I stuck with Aida, the san diego opera is playing it this year and I will be 2000 miles away :)

Falstaff is a comedy right? It must be strange to hear a Green comedy.