VERDI King of Italian Opera

Started by marvinbrown, April 20, 2007, 12:50:59 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Hector

I would suggest either Macbeth or Un Ballo.

The latter has a very light and tuneful air about it because of the nature of Riccardo and some memorable tunes, a great love scene beneath the gallows where the lovers meet in secret, but can be very dark. The great baritone aria, 'Eri tu', is reminiscent of Florestan's great aria in Fidelio.

The censors forced Verdi to set the opera in New England and the villains ended up with quite silly and unvillainous names. Sometimes productions return the opera to the Sweden of King Gustav.

Brian

Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on December 05, 2007, 10:53:15 PM
Falstaff is a comedy right? It must be strange to hear a Green comedy.
Heh, I don't know how it ends either in Verdi or Shakespeare, but I know the opening was intense as all he...ck.

Mozart

Un Ballo seems the most entertaining story out of the ones I mentioned so maybe I'll go with this one. I have 2 recordings, the one with Solti and the one with Pavarotti.

marvinbrown

Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on December 06, 2007, 08:05:18 PM
Un Ballo seems the most entertaining story out of the ones I mentioned so maybe I'll go with this one. I have 2 recordings, the one with Solti and the one with Pavarotti.

  You chose well with Un Ballo E..L..I..A..S Un Ballo is a real gem and hails from a later period in Verdi's life than Macbeth. I don't really care for Verdi's earlier operas of which Macbeth and Nabucco are a part. Un Ballo has some wonderful lyrical melodies- and a finale worth remembering.  I have the following DVD recording which I adore- its with Solti and Domingo you might want to check it out as well:

 

  marvin

Mozart

I haven't been able to start Un Ballo...I really don't have the motivation for it now, but maybe with the new year I can discover a new Verdi opera.

I went back to listening to Rigoletto, and I have to say out of the 4 Verdi operas I know (trovatore, aida, traviata) that Rigoletto is the best and my favorite. The music is wonderful, and there are so many memorable songs. But the ending for me is a little shaky. The part where Gilda is dying in Rig's arms...its just not sad enough. After 2 and a half hours of joy, I am always disappointed at the end. I wish Verdi choose sadder music for V'ho Ingannato.

I think the duke is Pavarotti's best role (from the ones I've heard). Does anyone here have this one? How is it? I have seen some scenes on youtube and it looks interesting.



I have the one with Alvarez, and sometimes his voice sounds sqeeuky to me, I dunno. It's also to distracting to have to look at naked women and listen to music at the same time...


marvinbrown

Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on December 30, 2007, 10:14:48 PM
I haven't been able to start Un Ballo...I really don't have the motivation for it now, but maybe with the new year I can discover a new Verdi opera.

I went back to listening to Rigoletto, and I have to say out of the 4 Verdi operas I know (trovatore, aida, traviata) that Rigoletto is the best and my favorite.


  E..L..I..A..S  have you not heard Verdi's Otello  :o ??  If not, forget about all the other operas in the operatic repertoire and rush immediately to your nearest record store and get yourself a copy of that opera.  As far as I am concerned Verdi's Otello is as GREAT as Mozart's Don Giovanni and I am not exaggerating here.  It is a superb masterpiece and will blow you away!!

  marvin

Mozart

Quote from: marvinbrown on January 02, 2008, 09:27:35 PM
  E..L..I..A..S  have you not heard Verdi's Otello  :o ??  If not, forget about all the other operas in the operatic repertoire and rush immediately to your nearest record store and get yourself a copy of that opera.  As far as I am concerned Verdi's Otello is as GREAT as Mozart's Don Giovanni and I am not exaggerating here.  It is a superb masterpiece and will blow you away!!

  marvin
I've watched the dvd with Placido and Dame Kiri, and it didn't really stand out to me. I even think it was you who told me to watch it Marvin :) I was young then, so maybe I'll give it another shot. I have no idea where the dvd is anymore though :( Hopefully I can find it.

marvinbrown

Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on January 02, 2008, 10:10:55 PM
I've watched the dvd with Placido and Dame Kiri, and it didn't really stand out to me. I even think it was you who told me to watch it Marvin :) I was young then, so maybe I'll give it another shot. I have no idea where the dvd is anymore though :( Hopefully I can find it.

  Oh I'm sorry then, I hope someday you'll change your mind about that opera.  Incidentally the DVD recording of Otello I have is with Placido Domingo and Renee Fleming at the MET with Levine conducting.  I am not familiar with the one with Dame Kiri. But now that you mentioned it I am intrigued!!

  marvin

Tsaraslondon

Quote from: marvinbrown on January 03, 2008, 06:11:16 AM
  Oh I'm sorry then, I hope someday you'll change your mind about that opera.  Incidentally the DVD recording of Otello I have is with Placido Domingo and Renee Fleming at the MET with Levine conducting.  I am not familiar with the one with Dame Kiri. But now that you mentioned it I am intrigued!!

  marvin

It is an excellent version, and also stars Sergei Leiferkus as a very interesting Iago. It is from the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden in 1992 and the stage production was (I think) by Elijah Moshinsky. Well worth seeking out.
\"A beautiful voice is not enough.\" Maria Callas

Mozart

Well, I was unable to find Othello, but I'm sure its somewhere. But I did find Don Carlo (i think in italian) and need an opinion. Should I try it? It seems to long and complex for me to understand it atm.

Brian

Well, imagine my surprise when I sat down at lunch today in my dorm's cafeteria and the lunch table was all talking about ... Verdi's Otello! They had never seen any opera before, but evidently the teacher of their class (Great Literature in Music) had assigned them to watch a DVD of Otello, and they just could not get over how intense an experience it was. It really blew them away, and they kept talking about how much they felt "sucked in" by all the action and characters! So naturally I invited them to come with me to the opera in the future ... and made a mental note to listen to Otello sometime!  :D

marvinbrown

#131
Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on January 17, 2008, 07:07:25 PM
Well, I was unable to find Othello, but I'm sure its somewhere. But I did find Don Carlo (i think in italian) and need an opinion. Should I try it? It seems to long and complex for me to understand it atm.

  E..L..I..A..S  Don Carlo is a very long opera (Verdi was accused of becoming quite like Wagner in that regard) and musically a very dark one as well.  It also has a very bizarre ending. 

  I have the following opera DVD which I can adequately recommend:

 

  Best of luck,
  marvin
  PS: Other opera fans, of course are more than free to disagree with me  ;).

Tsaraslondon

Quote from: marvinbrown on January 18, 2008, 01:22:19 AM
  E..L..I..A..S  Don Carlo is a very long opera (Verdi was accused of becoming quite like Wagner in that regard) and musically a very dark one as well.  It also has a very bizarre ending. 

  I have the following opera DVD which I can adequately recommend:

 

  Best of luck,
  marvin
  PS: Other opera fans, of course are more than free to disagree with me  ;).

Marvin,

Admittedly Don Carlo, or, more properly Carlos, is a long opera, and has its faults, most of which derive from Verdi having to write to the French Grand Opera model of Meyerbeer and the like, but it also contains some of his greatest music, and, in Act 4, Scene 1, one of the greatest scenes in all opera. From the mournful introduction, through Philip's great aria and the scene for the two basses (Philip and the Grand Inquisitor), the magnificent quartet for Elisabeth, Eboli, Posa and Philip to Eboli's thrilling O don fatale, this is Verdi at his very best.

The problem is editions. Verdi orginally wrote a 5 Act opera for Paris, and then reduced it to 4 Acts when it was translated into Italian for its Italian premiere, transposing Carlo's Act 1 aria (Io la vidi) to the first Tomb Scene, which became the new Act 1. When Visconti directed the opera at Covent Garden, in a now legendary production with Vickers, Gobbi and Christoff, Giulini conducting (and now available on Royal Opera House records), he restored the Fontainebleau 1st Act, which up til then had usually been omitted. However, he still did not restore all the music that Verdi cut for its first Italian performance, and I doubt you will find two versions of the opera which use exactly the same edition. The only one I know that, I think, includes every bit of music Verdi wrote for the opera, some as an appendix, is the Abbado version in French on DG. Unfortunately it is not the best version of the opera on CD. For that, you would have to go to one of the versions in Italian, probably Giulini on EMI, or maybe that live ROH one. The Karajan on EMI is also very fine, but omits the Fontainebleau Act. Karajan is also available, with substantially the same cast, on DVD. I don't know the DVD version you refer to, so don't know which edition of the score it uses.

Setting aside the question of editions, Verdi was not writing in ideal circumstances. He was certainly rather impatient of the demands of the Paris Opera, but there is no doubt he was thoroughly involved with his theme. He also provides us with some of his greatest, and most complex characters, particularly as regards Carlos himself and Philip. It is a very dark opera, but, then, so are Simon Boccanegra and La Forza del Destino, from roughly the same period. I agree that the end is something of a let down, and I know of no performance that has thoroughly solved its problems. On the other hand, the last act starts magnificently with one of Verdi's greatest arias Tu che le vanita (try and listen to the Callas version on her Verdi arias recital), which is followed by a superb duet for Carlos and Elisabeth. The opera does not reveal its secrets easily, but it is worth persevering. I think you will find that most Verdi lovers would place it very near the top of a list of favourite Verdi operas
\"A beautiful voice is not enough.\" Maria Callas

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: E..L..I..A..S.. =) on December 30, 2007, 10:14:48 PM
I went back to listening to Rigoletto, and I have to say out of the 4 Verdi operas I know (trovatore, aida, traviata) that Rigoletto is the best and my favorite. The music is wonderful, and there are so many memorable songs. But the ending for me is a little shaky. The part where Gilda is dying in Rig's arms...its just not sad enough.

It's not intended to be. It's intended to be a vision where the dying Gilda envisions meeting her mother in heaven.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

marvinbrown

#134
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on January 18, 2008, 02:25:14 AM
Marvin,

Admittedly Don Carlo, or, more properly Carlos, is a long opera, and has its faults, most of which derive from Verdi having to write to the French Grand Opera model of Meyerbeer and the like, but it also contains some of his greatest music, and, in Act 4, Scene 1, one of the greatest scenes in all opera. From the mournful introduction, through Philip's great aria and the scene for the two basses (Philip and the Grand Inquisitor), the magnificent quartet for Elisabeth, Eboli, Posa and Philip to Eboli's thrilling O don fatale, this is Verdi at his very best.

The problem is editions. Verdi orginally wrote a 5 Act opera for Paris, and then reduced it to 4 Acts when it was translated into Italian for its Italian premiere, transposing Carlo's Act 1 aria (Io la vidi) to the first Tomb Scene, which became the new Act 1. When Visconti directed the opera at Covent Garden, in a now legendary production with Vickers, Gobbi and Christoff, Giulini conducting (and now available on Royal Opera House records), he restored the Fontainebleau 1st Act, which up til then had usually been omitted. However, he still did not restore all the music that Verdi cut for its first Italian performance, and I doubt you will find two versions of the opera which use exactly the same edition. The only one I know that, I think, includes every bit of music Verdi wrote for the opera, some as an appendix, is the Abbado version in French on DG. Unfortunately it is not the best version of the opera on CD. For that, you would have to go to one of the versions in Italian, probably Giulini on EMI, or maybe that live ROH one. The Karajan on EMI is also very fine, but omits the Fontainebleau Act. Karajan is also available, with substantially the same cast, on DVD. I don't know the DVD version you refer to, so don't know which edition of the score it uses.

Setting aside the question of editions, Verdi was not writing in ideal circumstances. He was certainly rather impatient of the demands of the Paris Opera, but there is no doubt he was thoroughly involved with his theme. He also provides us with some of his greatest, and most complex characters, particularly as regards Carlos himself and Philip. It is a very dark opera, but, then, so are Simon Boccanegra and La Forza del Destino, from roughly the same period. I agree that the end is something of a let down, and I know of no performance that has thoroughly solved its problems. On the other hand, the last act starts magnificently with one of Verdi's greatest arias Tu che le vanita (try and listen to the Callas version on her Verdi arias recital), which is followed by a superb duet for Carlos and Elisabeth. The opera does not reveal its secrets easily, but it is worth persevering. I think you will find that most Verdi lovers would place it very near the top of a list of favourite Verdi operas

  Well said Tsaraslondon and Act 4 does have some wonderfull moments indeed. The above DVD I posted has the Fontaineblue scene and Nicolai Ghiaurov shines in the role of Filippo II King of Spain.  I should also note that it is in Italian and not French as well. 
 

  A side note:
  Who knows maybe E..L..I..A..S would respond to it far better than he did to Otello. But to me, and I am being a bit evil here, Otello rules the Romantic opera world...I could listen to Otello forwards, backwards and sideways and it still sounds GREAT! I find Otello a GREATER opera than Don Carlo, I am just curious but would you agree with me on this Tsaraslondon?     

  marvin 

Tsaraslondon

Quote from: marvinbrown on January 18, 2008, 07:00:34 AM

  I find Otello a GREATER opera than Don Carlo, I am just curious but would you agree with me on this Tsaraslondon?     

  marvin 

Marvin,

There is no doubt that Otello is the greater opera. In fact I'd go so far as to say it's one of the most perfect operas ever written. This would probably sound like sacrilege to some, but I actually prefer it to the play. Same with Falstaff, which even Shakespeareans would agree, is a greater opera than The Merry Wives of Windsor is a play. Like Mozart, with The Marriage of Figaro, Verdi transcends his source material to come up with something much more multi faceted, which tells us far more about the human condition. For the reasons stated in my previous post, I could not place Don Carlo on the same level as these two pinnacles of Verdi's greatness. It is, none the less, one of my favourite Verdi operas, and I would still place it very high in the canon of his works.

\"A beautiful voice is not enough.\" Maria Callas

bhodges

Quote from: Tsaraslondon on January 18, 2008, 08:36:18 AM
Marvin,

There is no doubt that Otello is the greater opera. In fact I'd go so far as to say it's one of the most perfect operas ever written. This would probably sound like sacrilege to some, but I actually prefer it to the play. Same with Falstaff, which even Shakespeareans would agree, is a greater opera than The Merry Wives of Windsor is a play. Like Mozart, with The Marriage of Figaro, Verdi transcends his source material to come up with something much more multi faceted, which tells us far more about the human condition. For the reasons stated in my previous post, I could not place Don Carlo on the same level as these two pinnacles of Verdi's greatness. It is, none the less, one of my favourite Verdi operas, and I would still place it very high in the canon of his works.

I'd agree that Otello and Falstaff are almost his "twin peaks," more than Don Carlo (although I've only seen the latter once).  But I must say, after seeing Don Carlo at the Met a few years ago (with Richard Margison and Sondra Radvanovsky, conducted by Fabio Luisi), I was quite moved, and wasn't expecting to be!

--Bruce

marvinbrown

#137
Quote from: bhodges on January 18, 2008, 11:15:49 AM
I'd agree that Otello and Falstaff are almost his "twin peaks," more than Don Carlo (although I've only seen the latter once).  But I must say, after seeing Don Carlo at the Met a few years ago (with Richard Margison and Sondra Radvanovsky, conducted by Fabio Luisi), I was quite moved, and wasn't expecting to be!

--Bruce

  Gentlemen (Tsaraslondon and Bruce) its settled then: I believe between all our posts we have demonstrated to E..L..I..A..S that Don Carlo, Otello and Falstaff must all be seen and heard!  I have once read that when it comes to Verdi every opera he wrote is a "class act". I think in a sense it is really difficult to go wrong with Verdi, especially if you pick operas from his "middle" years onwards.  How's that sweeping statement for my 900th post??

  marvin

marvinbrown

Quote from: Tsaraslondon on January 18, 2008, 08:36:18 AM
Marvin,

There is no doubt that Otello is the greater opera. In fact I'd go so far as to say it's one of the most perfect operas ever written. This would probably sound like sacrilege to some, but I actually prefer it to the play. Same with Falstaff, which even Shakespeareans would agree, is a greater opera than The Merry Wives of Windsor is a play.



  No sacrilege I agree wholeheartedly with your argument  :).  The music of Otello is so focused, it flows remarkably well from scene to scene, there is hardly a dull moment.  But more importantly and as you say, Verdi was able to "musically" translate the dramatic elements of Shakepeare's play flawlessly.  I especially love that duet between Otello and Iago as Iago tries to maliciously warn Otello of the dangers of jealousy- I keep playing that scene over and over again!

  marvin

 


Haffner

Quote from: marvinbrown on January 18, 2008, 01:28:53 PM
  No sacrilege I agree wholeheartedly with your argument  :).  The music of Otello is so focused, it flows remarkably well from scene to scene, there is hardly a dull moment.  But more importantly and as you say, Verdi was able to "musically" translate the dramatic elements of Shakepeare's play flawlessly.  I especially love that duet between Otello and Iago as Iago tries to maliciously warn Otello of the dangers of jealousy- I keep playing that scene over and over again!

  marvin

 





Amazing scene. It's really amazing that Wagner himself didn't comment much upon this particualr opera of Verdi's, as it often matches some of Wagner's, in my humble opinion.