VERDI King of Italian Opera

Started by marvinbrown, April 20, 2007, 12:50:59 PM

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bricon

Quote from: Haffner on January 18, 2008, 01:47:04 PM
It's really amazing that Wagner himself didn't comment much upon this particualr opera of Verdi's, as it often matches some of Wagner's, in my humble opinion.

It would have been really amazing if Wagner had commented on Otello at all!!!

Wagner had died before Verdi began composing that opera.

Sarastro

QuoteOtello and Falstaff are almost his "twin peaks"

Talking about peaks, I would contradict this, as Verdi's "peaky-peaky" peak is Aida, as musically and dramatically done.

Though my beloved is Nabucco. 8) Especially with brilliant Ghena Dimitrova.

Tsaraslondon

#142
Quote from: Sarastro on January 18, 2008, 07:20:09 PM
Talking about peaks, I would contradict this, as Verdi's "peaky-peaky" peak is Aida, as musically and dramatically done.

Though my beloved is Nabucco. 8) Especially with brilliant Ghena Dimitrova.

Many Verdi scholars would disagree though, as would I. Aida is probably the culmination of his middle period, but it is surely in Otello that Verdi reaches his purest genius. For me, it feels like the work that he has been working towards all his life. As I said, it's as near perfect as any opera can be.
\"A beautiful voice is not enough.\" Maria Callas

Sarastro

Quote from: Tsaraslondon on January 19, 2008, 01:29:35 AM
Aida is probably the culmination of his middle period.

Exactly, it is, but I'd still apply it to be a peak, as it was a real great achievement, and Otello with Falstaff are standing behind that piece, they are in the new, declamation epoch, they are aside. Who knows what Verdi would have created if he would have lived for 20-30 years more, probably a new peak, from a new style. Aida is what Verdi arrived to, having all the achievements of Italian school collected, it is a peak, and it declares a new step in opera development, after that peak a new era comes. That's why I consider it to be a peak. Or maybe better to say "critical point". ;D

Haffner

Quote from: bricon on January 18, 2008, 04:00:36 PM
It would have been really amazing if Wagner had commented on Otello at all!!!

Wagner had died before Verdi began composing that opera.



(laughing) eeeeeEEEEWWWPPPPS!

longears

Last night on the way home from dinner out, the car radio was playing Otello.  When we arrived home, my wife rushed in and switched on the tuner.  She hadn't cared that much for La Traviata or Aida, but now she's a Verdi fan.  Karajan/WP, Tebaldi and Mario del Monaco.

marvinbrown

#146
Quote from: Sarastro on January 19, 2008, 02:35:14 PM
Exactly, it is, but I'd still apply it to be a peak, as it was a real great achievement, and Otello with Falstaff are standing behind that piece, they are in the new, declamation epoch, they are aside. Who knows what Verdi would have created if he would have lived for 20-30 years more, probably a new peak, from a new style. Aida is what Verdi arrived to, having all the achievements of Italian school collected, it is a peak, and it declares a new step in opera development, after that peak a new era comes. That's why I consider it to be a peak. Or maybe better to say "critical point". ;D

  Another 20 0r 30 years  :o! This would have made Verdi well over  100 years old.  Remember this guy lived longer than any other composer I know (I think he died at age 88!)  That said we as opera fans are lucky that he lived that long and produced masterpeices (amongst them Otello and Falstaff) when he was in his 70s and 80s.  Verdi is like fine French wine- he just gets better with age!

  marvin

Hector

Quote from: Tsaraslondon on January 19, 2008, 01:29:35 AM
Many Verdi scholars would disagree though, as would I. Aida is probably the culmination of his middle period, but it is surely in Otello that Verdi reaches his purest genius. For me, it feels like the work that he has been working towards all his life. As I said, it's as near perfect as any opera can be.

Likewise. 'Aida' is the culmination of the 'middle-period.' I have always found this opera somewhat colder than the others. It was a 'piece d'occasion' and a brilliant one but, really, doncha just want to pass over 'Gloria in Egitto' (used as the Egyptian National Anthem at one time - 'nuff said) although this section  contains Verdi's best march and ballet music?

Also, I think, the most striking music is given to Amneris!

Many Verdi scholars would cite 'Otello' as Verdi's greatest opera and I would not want to argue but I notice that some, these days, put forward a case for 'Don Carlo(s).'


Tsaraslondon

Quote from: Hector on January 21, 2008, 06:36:12 AM
Likewise. 'Aida' is the culmination of the 'middle-period.' I have always found this opera somewhat colder than the others. It was a 'piece d'occasion' and a brilliant one but, really, doncha just want to pass over 'Gloria in Egitto' (used as the Egyptian National Anthem at one time - 'nuff said) although this section  contains Verdi's best march and ballet music?

Also, I think, the most striking music is given to Amneris!

Many Verdi scholars would cite 'Otello' as Verdi's greatest opera and I would not want to argue but I notice that some, these days, put forward a case for 'Don Carlo(s).'



I tend to agree with you. I admire Aida, but I don't love it the way I do La Traviata, Rigoletto and even Il Trovatore. I've never been quite able to put my finger on why, but it might have something to do with the fact that the characters, with the possible exception of Amneris, are all stock operatic figures, whereas those in Rigoletto and La Traviata, for instance, are real flesh and blood people. Of course, one could argue that the characters of Il Trovatore are also stock operatic figures, but somehow, for me, they come more readily to life than those in Aida.

As for Don Carlo(s), I feel it has too many problems to be called his greatest opera. I do, however, believe it contains some of his greatest music - virtually the whole of Act 4 Scene 1, Elisabeth's great Act 5 aria, Posa's death, his duet with Filippo - I could go on.
\"A beautiful voice is not enough.\" Maria Callas

Haffner

Quote from: Tsaraslondon on January 21, 2008, 06:54:55 AM
I tend to agree with you. I admire Aida, but I don't love it the way I do La Traviata, Rigoletto and even Il Trovatore. I've never been quite able to put my finger on why, but it might have something to do with the fact that the characters, with the possible exception of Amneris, are all stock operatic figures, whereas those in Rigoletto and La Traviata, for instance, are real flesh and blood people. Of course, one could argue that the characters of Il Trovatore are also stock operatic figures, but somehow, for me, they come more readily to life than those in Aida.





I completely agree, and well put! But Otello I fell is definitely "up there" with the classic Triple shot listed above.

My favorite will probably always be La Traviata. I can't get enough of Verdi's use of counterpoint in that opera; it comes at the least expected times and enters with breathtakingly brilliant effect. just my opinion.

marvinbrown

Quote from: Hector on January 21, 2008, 06:36:12 AM
Likewise. 'Aida' is the culmination of the 'middle-period.' I have always found this opera somewhat colder than the others. It was a 'piece d'occasion' and a brilliant one but, really, doncha just want to pass over 'Gloria in Egitto' (used as the Egyptian National Anthem at one time - 'nuff said) although this section  contains Verdi's best march and ballet music?

Also, I think, the most striking music is given to Amneris!

Many Verdi scholars would cite 'Otello' as Verdi's greatest opera and I would not want to argue but I notice that some, these days, put forward a case for 'Don Carlo(s).'



  Hector, it is funny how Verdi's large operatic output draws different reactions from it most ardent fans. I have always had a soft spot for AIDA and I would never dream of passing over the "Gloria in Egitto".  I find that in AIDA there is a certain magical quality that is not found in Verdi's other operas. Specifically, I am refering to the way that Verdi's music transports me into that mythical world of Ancient Egypt- and that scene in the desert where AIDA is trying to convince Radames to escape with her and leave Egypt is to die for.  This is one of the very few operas (Otello included) that I can listen to and appreciate without refering to a libretto.  I would like to say that I much prefer AIDA to DON CARLO.   


  marvin

   

Tsaraslondon

Quote from: marvinbrown on January 22, 2008, 05:25:29 AM
  Hector, it is funny how Verdi's large operatic output draws different reactions from it most ardent fans. I have always had a soft spot for AIDA and I would never dream of passing over the "Gloria in Egitto".  I find that in AIDA there is a certain magical quality that is not found in Verdi's other operas. Specifically, I am refering to the way that Verdi's music transports me into that mythical world of Ancient Egypt- and that scene in the desert where AIDA is trying to convince Radames to escape with her and leave Egypt is to die for.  This is one of the very few operas (Otello included) that I can listen to and appreciate without refering to a libretto.  I would like to say that I much prefer AIDA to DON CARLO.   


  marvin

   

Well I wouldn't like anyone to get the impression that I don't like Aida. Of course I do. And I also think it shows that Verdi, by this time, has complete mastery of his idiom. I just don't get as involved in it, and the characters it portrays, as much as I do some of his other operas. The Nile scene is the only time I really become involved, and then only in the performance with Callas and Gobbi, though Aida was never an ideal role for Callas, even back in her heyday, when she could hurl out a massive top Eb at the end of the Triumphal Scene. However, Callas and Gobbi really bring out the drama of this father/daughter confrontation, and, for once, one truly believes they are father and daughter.

I'd still call Otello, Verdi's greatest opera, with Falstaff (as well nigh perfect a work as was ever written) coming in a close second, if only because I place tragedy higher than comedy in the grand scheme of things. That said, I do tend to find my favourite Verdi opera tends to be whichever one I am listening to (or watching) at the time.
\"A beautiful voice is not enough.\" Maria Callas

Lethevich

Quote from: Tsaraslondon on January 22, 2008, 12:11:26 PM
...if only because I place tragedy higher than comedy in the grand scheme of things.

Your dinner parties must be fun... ;)
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

marvinbrown

Quote from: Tsaraslondon on January 22, 2008, 12:11:26 PM

That said, I do tend to find my favourite Verdi opera tends to be whichever one I am listening to (or watching) at the time.

  I like how you think!

  marvin

Hector

Quote from: marvinbrown on January 22, 2008, 05:25:29 AM
  Hector, it is funny how Verdi's large operatic output draws different reactions from it most ardent fans. I have always had a soft spot for AIDA and I would never dream of passing over the "Gloria in Egitto".  I find that in AIDA there is a certain magical quality that is not found in Verdi's other operas. Specifically, I am refering to the way that Verdi's music transports me into that mythical world of Ancient Egypt- and that scene in the desert where AIDA is trying to convince Radames to escape with her and leave Egypt is to die for.  This is one of the very few operas (Otello included) that I can listen to and appreciate without refering to a libretto.  I would like to say that I much prefer AIDA to DON CARLO.   


  marvin

   

I think that I can listen to all my favourite Verdi operas without a libretto, in fact, sing-a-long a Verdi which can be disconcerting for others in my household who are puzzled by my musical taste and wonder what I'm up to when I sing "M'ami, m'ami..." from 'Un Ballo,' for example (I'm no Domingo!).

Rod Corkin

Handel is the King of Italian opera!  8)
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
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(poco) Sforzando

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marvinbrown

#157
Quote from: Rod Corkin on January 25, 2008, 05:35:24 AM
Handel is the King of Italian opera!  8)

  Rod, my dear fellow, now you have invaded my territory   $:) $:)!! Remember I started this thread!!

  There are many royal figures in Italian Opera, but there is only one KING that RULES them all and that is VERDI!!

  By the way when it comes to Italian opera, Handel is a featherweight next to VERDI!!


  marvin 

Harry

I would agree with that Marvin, if we would be talking about his excellent Orchestral music, but I take issue with "one King Rules".
Now, now, is that not a bit over the top. what you'd say? :)
But Handel isn't neither a king, but for me far preferable over Verdi, but that you allready surmised right?

marvinbrown

Quote from: Harry on January 25, 2008, 06:07:31 AM
I would agree with that Marvin, if we would be talking about his excellent Orchestral music, but I take issue with "one King Rules".
Now, now, is that not a bit over the top. what you'd say? :)
But Handel isn't neither a king, but for me far preferable over Verdi, but that you allready surmised right?

   Harry, Rod please....we are 8 pages into this thread,  it has been established long ago that Verdi is King of Italian Opera!!  Your objections have been heard, noted and OVER RULED  ;D!


  marvin