VERDI King of Italian Opera

Started by marvinbrown, April 20, 2007, 12:50:59 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Harry

Quote from: marvinbrown on January 25, 2008, 06:16:32 AM
   Harry, Rod please....we are 8 pages into this thread,  it has been established long ago that Verdi is King of Italian Opera!!  Your objections have been heard, noted and OVER RULED  ;D!


  marvin

O, dear, no place for dissenters. You leave me no option. Monteverdi is the king op Italian opera. :)

Benny

Based on recorded performances, Verdi's greatest hits:
1. Otello
2. La Traviata
3. Aida
4. Rigoletto
5. Il Trovatore

Verdi's greater hits:
6. Messa da Requiem
7. Don Carlo
8. Un ballo in maschera
9. La Forza del destino
10. Macbeth

Other Verdi hits:
11. Simon Boccanegra
12. Falstaff
13. Nabucco
14. Ernani
15. Attila

No so frequently performed and recorded works:
16. Luisa Miller
17. I Vespri siciliani
18. I Lombardi alla prima crociata
19. Giovanni d'Arco
20. I Due Foscari

Flops: Stiffelio, I Masnadieri, Un Giorno di regno, Jerusalem, Il Corsaro, La battaglia di Legnano, Aroldo, Alzira.
"The need to be right is the sign of a vulgar mind."
(Albert Camus)

Wendell_E

Quote from: Benny on January 25, 2008, 07:04:19 AM
Based on recorded performances, Verdi's greatest hits:
1. Otello
2. La Traviata
3. Aida
4. Rigoletto
5. Il Trovatore

Verdi's greater hits:
6. Messa da Requiem
7. Don Carlo
8. Un ballo in maschera
9. La Forza del destino
10. Macbeth

Other Verdi hits:
11. Simon Boccanegra
12. Falstaff
13. Nabucco
14. Ernani
15. Attila

No so frequently performed and recorded works:
16. Luisa Miller
17. I Vespri siciliani
18. I Lombardi alla prima crociata
19. Giovanni d'Arco
20. I Due Foscari

Flops: Stiffelio, I Masnadieri, Un Giorno di regno, Jerusalem, Il Corsaro, La battaglia di Legnano, Aroldo, Alzira.

Hmmm.  That's 28 works, counting the requiem.  You left one out.  His first opera, Oberto, Conte di San Bonifacio

"Flops" or not (and I certainly wouldn't count them among Verdi's greatest), I'm rather fond of Stiffelio, I Masnadieri, Jérusalem, and La battaglia di Legnano, and would rate them higher than Giovanni d'Arco.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." ― Mark Twain

Morigan

Giovanni? Come on, this is about Joan of Arc!  ;D

Tsaraslondon

Quote from: Benny on January 25, 2008, 07:04:19 AM
Based on recorded performances, Verdi's greatest hits:
1. Otello
2. La Traviata
3. Aida
4. Rigoletto
5. IL Trovatore

Verdi's greater hits:
6. Messa da Requiem
7. Don Carlo
8. UN ballo in maschera
9. La Forza del destino
10. Macbeth

Other Verdi hits:
11. Simon Conakry
12. Falstaff
13. Nabucco
14. Erna
15. Attila

No so frequently performed and recorded works:
16. Luisa Miller
17. I Vespri siciliani
18. I Lombardi alla prima crociata
19. Giovanni D'Arcy
20. I Due Foscari

Flops: Stiffly, I Casandra, UN Gino DI region, Jerusalem, IL Corsair, La Battle DI Legman, Araldo, Almira.

ALL Verdi operas have something of interest in them, so I doubt I'd call any of them flops. Incidentally it's Giovanna D'Arco, Aroldo is a reworking of the really rather excellent, and now quite often performed, Stiffelio, and Jerusalem was a reworking, for the Paris Opera, of I Lombardi.

As for Rod, he is best ignored. He waits for a thread to grow in length and then tries to hijack it with his Handel rantings. Handel was indeed a great opera composer, but he was not Italian. Monteverdi was also a great composer, and very important as far as development of the genre goes, but I would still rank Verdi higher, his operatic output being far larger than Monteverdi's. He is to Italian opera what Wagner was to German opera.

Looking again at your rankings, Benny, they really are rather strange. Macbeth greater than Falstaff, undoubtedly one of the greatest comic operas ever written? Greater than Simon Boccanegra, which, IMO, is at least as great as Don Carlo(s)? Attila and Ernani ranked higher than Luisa Miller? It seems a rather arbitrary list, to say the least.
\"A beautiful voice is not enough.\" Maria Callas

Anne

Quote from: Benny on January 25, 2008, 07:04:19 AM
Based on recorded performances, Verdi's greatest hits:
1. Otello
2. La Traviata
3. Aida
4. Rigoletto
5. Il Trovatore

Verdi's greater hits:
6. Messa da Requiem
7. Don Carlo
8. Un ballo in maschera
9. La Forza del destino
10. Macbeth

Other Verdi hits:
11. Simon Boccanegra
12. Falstaff
13. Nabucco
14. Ernani
15. Attila

No so frequently performed and recorded works:
16. Luisa Miller
17. I Vespri siciliani
18. I Lombardi alla prima crociata
19. Giovanni d'Arco
20. I Due Foscari

Flops: Stiffelio, I Masnadieri, Un Giorno di regno, Jerusalem, Il Corsaro, La battaglia di Legnano, Aroldo, Alzira.

I'd put the Requiem and Falstaff in the top 5 and replace Louisa Miller with Stiffelio.

Welcome to the forum, Benny.

Benny

Looking again at your rankings, Benny, they really are rather strange. Macbeth greater than Falstaff, undoubtedly one of the greatest comic operas ever written? Greater than Simon Boccanegra, which, IMO, is at least as great as Don Carlo(s)? Attila and Ernani ranked higher than Luisa Miller? It seems a rather arbitrary list, to say the least.

You have overlooked the first sentence. This is not my ranking, it's the record industry's varying attention to Verdi's works. Otello, for example, was recorded 238 times (as of 2005), which recording initiatives have yielded a far greater number of different LPs, CDs, DVDs. By contrast, Luisa Miller was recorded 33 times throughout the history of the recording industry (Attila, 39; Ernani, 49; Falstaff, 63; Simon Boccanegra, 69; Macbeth, 76). Other than the unfortunate lapse of judgment in writing "flops," the ranking, "based on recorded performances," is factual rather than judgmental.
Thank you for your welcome Anne.
"The need to be right is the sign of a vulgar mind."
(Albert Camus)

Tsaraslondon

Quote from: Benny on January 25, 2008, 10:02:40 AM
Looking again at your rankings, Benny, they really are rather strange. Macbeth greater than Falstaff, undoubtedly one of the greatest comic operas ever written? Greater than Simon Boccanegra, which, IMO, is at least as great as Don Carlo(s)? Attila and Ernani ranked higher than Luisa Miller? It seems a rather arbitrary list, to say the least.

You have overlooked the first sentence. This is not my ranking, it's the record industry's varying attention to Verdi's works. Otello, for example, was recorded 238 times (as of 2005), which recording initiatives have yielded a far greater number of different LPs, CDs, DVDs. By contrast, Luisa Miller was recorded 33 times throughout the history of the recording industry (Attila, 39; Ernani, 49; Falstaff, 63; Simon Boccanegra, 69; Macbeth, 76). Other than the unfortunate lapse of judgment in writing "flops," the ranking, "based on recorded performances," is factual rather than judgmental.
Thank you for your welcome Anne.


Sorry, Benny, you're right I didn't read that first sentence. I suppose the possible reason for Falstaff being so far down the rankings is that it had two first class recordings (Toscanini and Karajan) quite early in its recorded history. I've often wondered why Luisa Miller has been recorded so rarely, but maybe that comes down to the same thing - both the Cleva with Moffo and the Maag with Caballe are excellent. On the other hand, Macbeth didn't receive a satisfactory recording until Abbado and Muti recorded it (both at roughly the same time) in the 1970s.
\"A beautiful voice is not enough.\" Maria Callas

bhodges

Quote from: Tsaraslondon on January 25, 2008, 10:35:53 AM
On the other hand, Macbeth didn't receive a satisfactory recording until Abbado and Muti recorded it (both at roughly the same time) in the 1970s.

I still find this amazing, since (as a newcomer to this particular opera) I have found Macbeth immensely enjoyable.  I first heard it in Philadelphia in 2003 in an excellent production from the Finnish National Opera, and then saw the Met's new production last fall, and liked it enough to consider returning later this spring for a second hearing.

And this reminds me that I probably need to look for one of those recordings.

--Bruce

Rod Corkin

Quote from: Tsaraslondon on January 25, 2008, 08:36:27 AM

As for Rod, he is best ignored. He waits for a thread to grow in length and then tries to hijack it with his Handel rantings. Handel was indeed a great opera composer, but he was not Italian. Monteverdi was also a great composer, and very important as far as development of the genre goes, but I would still rank Verdi higher, his operatic output being far larger than Monteverdi's. He is to Italian opera what Wagner was to German opera.

One brief sentence can hardly be construed as a 'rant'! The topic title is misleading I think, if it is meant to concern Italian nationals only. Bear in mind Handel composed a lot of vocal music, operas included, in Italy!! All things considered I thought my comment was on topic. If a German produced the best Italian operas what does that say about the Italian composers!? (no need to answer, if you expect me to read it at least).
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Harry

Quote from: Tsaraslondon on January 25, 2008, 08:36:27 AM

Monteverdi was also a great composer, and very important as far as development of the genre goes, but I would still rank Verdi higher, his operatic output being far larger than Monteverdi's.

So because Verdi's output is larger, means automatically that he is greater then Monteverdi?
The ranking thing is absurd.
Monteverdi makes more than up in quality compared to Verdi, I am sure.... :)

Tsaraslondon

Quote from: Harry on January 26, 2008, 03:15:43 AM
So because Verdi's output is larger, means automatically that he is greater then Monteverdi?
The ranking thing is absurd.
Monteverdi makes more than up in quality compared to Verdi, I am sure.... :)

In your (humble?) opinion. The quality of Monetverdi's operas is not in dispute. However, Monteverdi composed a great deal of music that was not opera, opera being then in its infancy. Verdi, on the other hand, composed almost exclusively for the stage. It's actually pretty ridiculous to compare them anyway. They were writing at different times for different audiences. There is no doubt however, that Verdi's importance in the development of the genre was at least as great as Monteverdi's.
\"A beautiful voice is not enough.\" Maria Callas

Harry

Quote from: Tsaraslondon on January 26, 2008, 03:34:34 AM
In your (humble?) opinion. The quality of Monteverdi's operas is not in dispute. However, Monteverdi composed a great deal of music that was not opera, opera being then in its infancy. Verdi, on the other hand, composed almost exclusively for the stage. It's actually pretty ridiculous to compare them anyway. They were writing at different times for different audiences. There is no doubt however, that Verdi's importance in the development of the genre was at least as great as Monteverdi's.


I did not compare both composers, and will not, but will agree upon the last sentence you wrote. That is a fine compromise.... :)

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Rod Corkin on January 26, 2008, 02:38:53 AM
One brief sentence can hardly be construed as a 'rant'! The topic title is misleading I think, if it is meant to concern Italian nationals only. Bear in mind Handel composed a lot of vocal music, operas included, in Italy!! All things considered I thought my comment was on topic. If a German produced the best Italian operas what does that say about the Italian composers!? (no need to answer, if you expect me to read it at least).

Handel's operas were all written in the Italian style, whether they were produced in London or Timbuktu. The best of them are among the best of Italian opera produced in the late Baroque period, just as Verdi's were the best from the Romantic era and Monteverdi's the best from the early Baroque. As Tsaraslondon rightly insists, "it's actually pretty ridiculous to compare them anyway."
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Rod Corkin

Quote from: Sforzando on January 26, 2008, 11:21:37 AM
Handel's operas were all written in the Italian style, whether they were produced in London or Timbuktu. The best of them are among the best of Italian opera produced in the late Baroque period, just as Verdi's were the best from the Romantic era and Monteverdi's the best from the early Baroque. As Tsaraslondon rightly insists, "it's actually pretty ridiculous to compare them anyway."

Well the title of this topic implies there is a King, and you can't have two Kings in the Kingdom of Opera. To suggest otherwise, whether rightly or wrongly, would not be in the spirit of the topic. N'est-ce pas?
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

wagnernn

Verdi didn't focus his music to alto, did he?(

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Rod Corkin on February 03, 2008, 12:53:28 PM
Well the title of this topic implies there is a King, and you can't have two Kings in the Kingdom of Opera. To suggest otherwise, whether rightly or wrongly, would not be in the spirit of the topic. N'est-ce pas?

::)
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

MDL

Sorry, but I just can't resist; wasn't it Pierre Boulez who dismissed all of Verdi's work as being nothing but rum-ti-tum?  ;D

(runs for cover)

Wendell_E

Quote from: MDL on February 04, 2008, 04:46:05 AM
Sorry, but I just can't resist; wasn't it Pierre Boulez who dismissed all of Verdi's work as being nothing but rum-ti-tum?  ;D

(runs for cover)

Well, he did say Verdi was "stupid, stupid, stupid".  On the other hand, he also said all opera houses should be burned down.

He does seem to have gotten wiser as he gotten older, and doesn't make such pronouncents as frequently as he used to.  And of course, he's worked in a few opera houses without any mysterious fires occuring in them.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." ― Mark Twain

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Wendell_E on February 04, 2008, 05:42:39 AM
Well, he did say Verdi was "stupid, stupid, stupid".  On the other hand, he also said all opera houses should be burned down.

He does seem to have gotten wiser as he gotten older, and doesn't make such pronouncents as frequently as he used to.  And of course, he's worked in a few opera houses without any mysterious fires occuring in them.

He also said Messiaen produced "brothel music," so his pronouncements are not always off base.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."