Prokofiev vs. Shostakovich

[karlhenning]

. . . Shostakovich's music, for me, has so many influences and I love the sarcasm and parody in his music. This gives his music a more human quality I think.

One notes that, for instance, Prokofiev wrote some piano music titled Sarcasms (the five pieces of Op.17) . . . I really cannot think that sarcasm and parody are the key to more human music.  These aspects aside, nothing to be argued with, that you enjoy the sarcasm and parody elements in Shostakovich, or all the influences, of course.

He just seemed like he wasn't afraid to combine high culture and low culture musics together.

Sure, and if you like, by all means prefer that to Prokofiev's musical world.  For me the broad difference is perhaps reasonably summarized as: Prokofiev was at heart something of a classicist (Exhibit A: his first symphony in homage to Haydn. Exhibit B: the many wonderful, rigorously Beethovenian aspects to the late piano sonatas); where Shostakovich was more in sympathy with the Romantic modes.  A bit crude, probably, but I should almost illustrate it thus — Prokofiev : Shostakovich :: Sibelius : Mahler

The imperfections of that analogy only begin with the fact that Prokofiev gravitated so consistently to the stage (which was almost entirely absent from Sibelius's musical life) . . . but one of its signal virtues is, it illustrates my point that it's nearly absurd to "compare" either pair of composers — you cannot 'prefer' one to the other, without essentially disregarding all the things which make the "deselected" composer's music great.

The thing that fascinates me most though with Shostakovich is trying to find the true meaning behind his music, which is still unclear. With Prokofiev his feelings in the music are pretty clear I think, but with Shostakovich I feel that I'm listening to somebody behind one giant facade.

As above, pretty daft to compare the two composers on this basis, I call it.  With both Ravel and Prokofiev, e.g., the composer would have laughed at the idea that the music is essentially an occasion for the expression of personal feelings.  They wrote their music, to the end that it should be music.

[not edward]

Sure, and if you like, by all means prefer that to Prokofiev's musical world.  For me the broad difference is perhaps reasonably summarized as: Prokofiev was at heart something of a classicist

It's a kind of perverse way to look at it, but I've actually wondered if the best analogy (still not a great one) would be comparisng the two to Brahms and Dvorak. Prokofiev (as with Dvorak) the "great melodist," Shostakovich arguably less so, but the role of melody in their music being inseparable from its structure and effect--Shostakovich with Prokofiev's melodies would work as badly as Prokofiev with Shostakovich's.

With Prokofiev his feelings in the music are pretty clear I think.

I'm not sure I agree. Prime exhibit: the 7th symphony, which to me is as expressively ambivalent as anything in Shostakovich (or, indeed, anyone else).

[Mirror Image]

Karl, made some good points, which I can't really argue with, but overall Shostakovich wins for me, because I find his music more compelling in the end. I listened to Symphony No. 8 last night after a much long hiatus and it's gripping. I can't think of one work by Prokofiev that has had this type of hold on me from beginning to end. Prokofiev wrote some outstanding music though and I would be a fool to say that he hasn't. Works like Scythian Suite, Symphonies Nos. 5-7, Lieutenant Kije, Seymon Kotko Suite, Dreams, Autumnal, The Prodigal Son, Violin Concerto No. 1, Piano Concerto No. 3, among others are enough reason to return to Prokofiev time and time again.

[Mirror Image]

I'm not sure I agree. Prime exhibit: the 7th symphony, which to me is as expressively ambivalent as anything in Shostakovich (or, indeed, anyone else).

I think Prokofiev's 7th symphony is fantastic and is, indeed, one of my favorite symphonies by him. I never doubted the musical merit or expression in his music, Edward, my opinion was just that with Prokofiev everything seems to be much more straightforward than Shostakovich, although Shostakovich has written many works that are direct and to-the-point.

[Mirror Image]

Many months ago, I discovered Shostakovich's The Golden Age ballet through the recordings by Serebrier and Rozhdesvensky and I have to say that this work impressed the hell out of me even on first hearing.

[Robert]

I think Prokofiev's 7th symphony is fantastic and is, indeed, one of my favorite symphonies by him. I never doubted the musical merit or expression in his music, Edward, my opinion was just that Prokofiev everything seems to be much more straightforward than Shostakovich, although Shostakovich has written many works that are direct and to-the-point.

AGREE

[not edward]

I think Prokofiev's 7th symphony is fantastic and is, indeed, one of my favorite symphonies by him. I never doubted the musical merit or expression in his music, Edward, my opinion was just that Prokofiev everything seems to be much more straightforward than Shostakovich, although Shostakovich has written many works that are direct and to-the-point.

Yeah, I was just noting that in my view, the 7th symphony (amongst others) belies Prokofiev's "straightforward" nature. What's on the surface a rather gentle and warm work has very deep undercurrents that when brought out properly bring out something very different. (This might well have been part of the reason for Shostakovich's admiration for the work--one of the few Prokofiev works he commented favourably on.)

[karlhenning]

Another of the few which had Dmitri Dmitriyevich's close attention: the Symphony-Concerto for Cello and Orchestra.

[Mirror Image]

Yeah, I was just noting that in my view, the 7th symphony (amongst others) belies Prokofiev's "straightforward" nature. What's on the surface a rather gentle and warm work has very deep undercurrents that when brought out properly bring out something very different. (This might well have been part of the reason for Shostakovich's admiration for the work--one of the few Prokofiev works he commented favourably on.)

Good point, edward. That kind of reminds me of Vaughan Williams's Symphony No. 5, which seems gentle and warm on the surface, but underneath there seems to lie a whole realm of profundity.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Works like Scythian Suite, Symphonies Nos. 5-7, Lieutenant Kije, Seymon Kotko Suite, Dreams, Autumnal, The Prodigal Son, Violin Concerto No. 1, Piano Concerto No. 3, among others are enough reason to return to Prokofiev time and time again.

It's no doubt you hear Prokofiev as "more straightforward" since the examples you give are more of the "straightforward" variety. But that's only one side of Prokofiev.

There are many works, including but not limited to, the piano sonatas, various solo piano works, the bulk of his operas, the second and fifth piano concertos, etc... that dispel the "straightforward" in Prokofiev.

Worth checking out.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

......[snip] the 7th symphony (amongst others) belies Prokofiev's "straightforward" nature. What's on the surface a rather gentle and warm work has very deep undercurrents that when brought out properly bring out something very different.

Agreed. This was something of a trademark in much of Prokofiev. It's what gives him so much lasting power and rewards prolonged exposure.

[karlhenning]

And I should say the same of a piece as apparently "straightforward" as Cinderella.

[not edward]

And I should say the same of a piece as apparently "straightforward" as Cinderella.

Which is a work I really need to give some more attention to--it's been a while (as it has with many of the ballets other than L'enfant prodigue and R&J).

One case where parallels between these two composers might not be entirely irrelevant: how much of Shostakovich's 15th symphony springs from what's latent in Prokofiev's 7th? I think actually quite a bit.

[Mirror Image]

It's no doubt you hear Prokofiev as "more straightforward" since the examples you give are more of the "straightforward" variety. But that's only one side of Prokofiev.

There are many works, including but not limited to, the piano sonatas, various solo piano works, the bulk of his operas, the second and fifth piano concertos, etc... that dispel the "straightforward" in Prokofiev.

Worth checking out.

Well sure, I don't doubt there are many sides to Prokofiev as there are with many composers. I probably just need to spend more time finding those more enigmatic works.

[karlhenning]

The string quartets, also (fie that there are only two!), are pieces which invite me back frequently.  A case where transparency yields a view unto depths.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

And I should say the same of a piece as apparently "straightforward" as Cinderella.

That's a great example, Karl. A work with great surface charm yet bristling underneath.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Well sure, I don't doubt there are many sides to Prokofiev as there are with many composers. I probably just need to spend more time finding those more enigmatic works.

"Enigmatic" is a great way to describe Prokofiev. Keeps us off balance.

[eyeresist]

With both Ravel and Prokofiev, e.g., the composer would have laughed at the idea that the music is essentially an occasion for the expression of personal feelings.  They wrote their music, to the end that it should be music.

I think Prokofiev would only have said such a thing to "tease the geese". If music is only organised sound, and painting is only pigment on canvas, and love is only an electrochemical phenomenon - all this is rather to MISS THE POINT.

Anyway, here's another analogy: Mozart / Beethoven : Prokofiev / Shostakovich.

[mszczuj]

Anyway, here's another analogy: Mozart / Beethoven : Prokofiev / Shostakovich.

I don't like it at all. Shostakovich have (for me of course) nothing similar to Beethoven and for sure much less than Prokofiev - except writing symphonies and quartets. And Prokofiev nothing to Mozart. I suppose Mendelssohn / Schumann  : Prokofiev / Shostakovich will be much better.

[DavidW]

lol I think we can skip all analogies when comparing two famous composers that we all know well!