The Great Mahler Debate

Started by Greta, April 21, 2007, 08:06:00 AM

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DavidW

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 24, 2007, 03:23:33 PM
Are we talking about the DG set, Andy? The finale of the Second disappoints me (the peroration just too damn slow; it fails to lift off the ground as it should). The Fourth is ruined by that boy brat soprano...I really hate it. The other symphonies I like, especially 1, 5, 6 and 9. The Eighth I don't have (I didn't buy the box; I bought each symphony as it was released and somehow missed that one).

Sarge

I think that 3, 5 and 6 in the set are staggeringly great.  The ninth is pretty darn good, but I like Chailly with the same orchestra slightly more than that particular Bernstein recording.  Have you heard Chailly's Ninth Sarge?  What did you think of it, if you have?

Sergeant Rock

#121
Quote from: DavidW on April 24, 2007, 05:56:37 PM
I think that 3, 5 and 6 in the set are staggeringly great.  The ninth is pretty darn good, but I like Chailly with the same orchestra slightly more than that particular Bernstein recording.  Have you heard Chailly's Ninth Sarge?  What did you think of it, if you have?

Like the Bernstein set, I collected Chailly's Mahler as they were released individually, only missing the Fifth somehow (which I finally found a few years later in the shop at the Gewandhaus in Leipzig. On the old board I talked about my trials and tribulations tracking this still in print disc down; it was weird...the online companies kept promising it and failing to deliver). The First and Second I never bothered to buy because of lackluster reviews. I'm still under the impression they are the weak links in the Chailly set...or am I wrong?

Anyway, with each new release my admiration grew. As a set I consider it unbeatable, not least for the superb sonics and the playing of the Concertgebouw. As I've grown older I've come to appreciate Chailly's more objective approach to Mahler interpretation but find it still more emotional...often devastatingly emotional...compared to say Boulez's dissection of the music or Kubelik's "Mahler light".

About the Ninth...yes, a great performance and recording, staggeringly great actually, one of my favorites along with Klemperer (love his stoicism) and Karajan (achingly beautiful). The Concertgebouw have a long Mahler tradition and I think you can hear that in this symphony: the woodwind are not afraid to make the rude sound; the percussion have real impact. Chailly's interpretation just seems right; never over-the-top like Bernstein but just as deeply disturbing in implication.

I've acquired the Bertini set fairly recently and my first, and only hearing so far, makes me think his may be one of the great Ninths too. I'm looking forward to hearing Barenboim. O mensch gave it a thumbs up. My fanboy enthusiasm for this conductor and his east Berlin band was confirmed two weeks ago when I heard them play the Fifth and Seventh, along with Boulez conducting the Eighth.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Haffner

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 24, 2007, 03:23:33 PM
Are we talking about the DG set, Andy? The finale of the Second disappoints me (the peroration just too damn slow; it fails to lift off the ground as it should). The Fourth is ruined by that boy brat soprano...I really hate it. The other symphonies I like, especially 1, 5, 6 and 9. The Eighth I don't have (I didn't buy the box; I bought each symphony as it was released and somehow missed that one).

Sarge




I hear your problems with the DG second and fourth, there are better. But, Sarge, if you don't have the DG Bernstein 8th, please get it! You will not regret it.

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Haffner on April 25, 2007, 04:43:44 AM
I hear your problems with the DG second and fourth, there are better. But, Sarge, if you don't have the DG Bernstein 8th, please get it! You will not regret it.

Okay, Andy, I'll check it out. I wonder, though, if it's available right now outside the set? Will investigate.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Haffner

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2007, 04:55:52 AM
Okay, Andy, I'll check it out. I wonder, though, if it's available right now outside the set? Will investigate.

Sarge




It's excellent. Of course, the Karajan is great as well.


Link:

http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-9-Gustav/dp/B00000C298/ref=sr_1_4/102-6219080-1355337?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177510264&sr=1-4

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Haffner on April 25, 2007, 06:12:30 AM



It's excellent. Of course, the Karajan is great as well.


Link:

http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-9-Gustav/dp/B00000C298/ref=sr_1_4/102-6219080-1355337?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177510264&sr=1-4


The link is for Bernstein's Sony 9th. I thought we were talking about the DG 8th. Now I'm confused ;D

I'll tell you what I have and then you tell me what you're recommending: I have the Sony 8th and 9th and the DG 9th but don't own the DG 8th. Over to you  :)

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

bhodges

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2007, 03:36:56 AM
The First and Second I never bothered to buy because of lackluster reviews. I'm still under the impression they are the weak links in the Chailly set...or am I wrong?

I think Chailly's First is one of the highlights of his cycle, comparable to the Fifth in impact and sound quality.  The "nature scenes" are particularly effective, thanks to the superb Concertgebouw woodwinds.  And Chailly does the final movement incredibly well.  Plus, the original disc has a very interesting orchestration of Berg's Piano Sonata by Theo Verbey, well worth hearing. 

Full disclosure about my thoughts on his Second: I heard Chailly and the orchestra do it live three times, in Amsterdam, New York and Philadelphia (just a bit of good luck  ;)), so the CD brings back some sweet memories.  It may not be the strongest in the set, but I think it's still excellent; if some of the others rate a "10" this one might be an "8" (just to try to quantify).  Although the sound is very good, over time I have decided it is not absolutely at the top of the heap, compared to some of the others in the cycle.  (And let's face it: there are now many, many fine recordings of this symphony.)

--Bruce

Haffner

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2007, 06:43:22 AM

The link is for Bernstein's Sony 9th. I thought we were talking about the DG 8th. Now I'm confused ;D

I'll tell you what I have and then you tell me what you're recommending: I have the Sony 8th and 9th and the DG 9th but don't own the DG 8th. Over to you  :)

Sarge




OOOOPS! So sorry, Sarge! Am mentally doing push-ups in penance.


http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-9-Gustav/dp/B000001G7G/ref=sr_1_2/102-6219080-1355337?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177512551&sr=1-2

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: bhodges on April 25, 2007, 06:50:22 AM
I think Chailly's First is one of the highlights of his cycle, comparable to the Fifth in impact and sound quality.  The "nature scenes" are particularly effective, thanks to the superb Concertgebouw woodwinds.  And Chailly does the final movement incredibly well.  Plus, the original disc has a very interesting orchestration of Berg's Piano Sonata by Theo Verbey, well worth hearing. 

Full disclosure about my thoughts on his Second: I heard Chailly and the orchestra do it live three times, in Amsterdam, New York and Philadelphia (just a bit of good luck  ;)), so the CD brings back some sweet memories.  It may not be the strongest in the set, but I think it's still excellent; if some of the others rate a "10" this one might be an "8" (just to try to quantify).  Although the sound is very good, over time I have decided it is not absolutely at the top of the heap, compared to some of the others in the cycle.  (And let's face it: there are now many, many fine recordings of this symphony.)

--Bruce

Thanks for your input, Bruce.  Perhaps I shouldn't have overlooked the First afterall. On the wishlist it goes.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

bhodges

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2007, 06:57:52 AM
Thanks for your input, Bruce.  Perhaps I shouldn't have overlooked the First afterall. On the wishlist it goes.

Sarge

Sure thing!  PS, IIRC, I think the First came relatively early in the cycle, and around that time people seemed to be skeptical of Chailly in general, perhaps from some of those who weren't ready for Haitink's replacement.  (Frankly, I like both conductors.)  Chailly brought a rather different focus, repertoire and energy, but clearly some people thought he was "messing" with the sound of the orchestra.  (Perhaps due to all that "modern music" he was encouraging... ;D)

--Bruce

DavidW

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2007, 03:36:56 AM
Anyway, with each new release my admiration grew. As a set I consider it unbeatable, not least for the superb sonics and the playing of the Concertgebouw. As I've grown older I've come to appreciate Chailly's more objective approach to Mahler interpretation but find it still more emotional...often devastatingly emotional...compared to say Boulez's dissection of the music or Kubelik's "Mahler light".

About the Ninth...yes, a great performance and recording, staggeringly great actually, one of my favorites along with Klemperer (love his stoicism) and Karajan (achingly beautiful). The Concertgebouw have a long Mahler tradition and I think you can hear that in this symphony: the woodwind are not afraid to make the rude sound; the percussion have real impact. Chailly's interpretation just seems right; never over-the-top like Bernstein but just as deeply disturbing in implication.

I've acquired the Bertini set fairly recently and my first, and only hearing so far, makes me think his may be one of the great Ninths too. I'm looking forward to hearing Barenboim. O mensch gave it a thumbs up. My fanboy enthusiasm for this conductor and his east Berlin band was confirmed two weeks ago when I heard them play the Fifth and Seventh, along with Boulez conducting the Eighth.

Sarge

Sarge, I think I'm with you here.  Chailly seemed too cold, analytic to me at first but I warmed up to him, and realized that he brought passion to Mahler.  Boulez and Kubelik do sound lighter in comparison, kind of like a Haydn-like treatment of Mahler.  Sometimes I'm in the mood for that, sometimes not.  I've only heard Boulez in a couple of the symphonies, but I've heard Kubelik in all of them.

That reminds me of what happened a few months back-- Karl and I were in the Borders in Providence when this guy (who was eavesdropping) came up to us and was ranting about the Boulez Mahler cycle and how he was out of a job.  Just totally crazy.  Karl took it in stride, being a city slicker, I'm sure it's routine for him. ;D

Perhaps that's why Karl thinks that Mahlerites might be a little odd. ;D  Has anyone else met unusual Mahlerites? ;D

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: DavidW on April 25, 2007, 09:35:37 AM
Perhaps that's why Karl thinks that Mahlerites might be a little odd. ;D  Has anyone else met unusual Mahlerites? ;D

You mean other than the ones on this forum?  ;D

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

DavidW


71 dB

I am listening to Mahler #2 while writing this. All the symphonies I have heard so far (1, 4, 7 & 9) have been nice music but surprisingly they haven't contained even one bar that blows me away. I continue listening to the symphonies but I still can't include Mahler among the greatest symphonists.

Mahler's trademark is to keep things simple. I constantly feel he does not take the music anywhere. Also, all movements sound alike. I don't know another composer whose fast and slow movements sound so similar. Mahler is also hooking and pleasing.
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Valentino

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DavidW

Quote from: 71 dB on April 26, 2007, 01:03:33 PM
Mahler's trademark is to keep things simple. I constantly feel he does not take the music anywhere. Also, all movements sound alike. I don't know another composer whose fast and slow movements sound so similar. Mahler is also hooking and pleasing.

Given that many of Mahler's symphonies are nearly an hour and a half long with each movement containing several themes... I don't think that saying that Mahler keeps things simple is apt.

There is such an immense gulf between the fast and slow movements in the 2nd and 5th symphonies that I have to disagree with them sounding so similar.  It's hard for me to imagine how anyone could miss that sharp contrast!

I know you haven't listened to the 2nd and 5th yet, but there is alot of variability in the 9th.  Try it some more, it might grow on you Elgar.  If not, well life's too short to dwell on it. :)

bhodges

Quote from: 71 dB on April 26, 2007, 01:03:33 PM
I am listening to Mahler #2 while writing this. All the symphonies I have heard so far (1, 4, 7 & 9) have been nice music but surprisingly they haven't contained even one bar that blows me away. I continue listening to the symphonies but I still can't include Mahler among the greatest symphonists.

Well then (sincerely, without sarcasm) I'd just go on to other composers, truly.  Despite the tons of Mahler fans around here, no need to dwell on "trying to like" his music; there are far too many other composers who could use your advocacy, and would welcome it (the living ones, that is).  ;)

--Bruce

71 dB

Quote from: DavidW on April 26, 2007, 01:24:52 PM
Given that many of Mahler's symphonies are nearly an hour and a half long with each movement containing several themes... I don't think that saying that Mahler keeps things simple is apt.

Well, if the symphonies were half their length the themes would overlap 2 times more => complexity.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

DavidW

Quote from: 71 dB on April 26, 2007, 01:30:28 PM
Well, if the symphonies were half their length the themes would overlap 2 times more => complexity.

Totally do it Webern style. ;D  Mahler's symphonies are already complex enough, if they were any denser I don't think that I would enjoy them.  But then again I don't have modern ears.

What do y'all think, do you want Mahler to be denser?

71 dB

Quote from: DavidW on April 26, 2007, 01:45:09 PM
Totally do it Webern style. ;D  Mahler's symphonies are already complex enough, if they were any denser I don't think that I would enjoy them.  But then again I don't have modern ears.

What do y'all think, do you want Mahler to be denser?

Based on what I have heard so far I'd like Mahler 4 times denser. 
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"