The Great Mahler Debate

Started by Greta, April 21, 2007, 08:06:00 AM

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mahlertitan

Quote from: 71 dB on April 28, 2007, 07:10:51 AM
I have a bad memory. I can't memorise any musical piece but I can "learn" musical fragments. I don't know about others but that's how my head works.

I have never claimed that!  >:(

well, you certainly implied that.

71 dB

Quote from: MahlerTitan on April 28, 2007, 07:19:57 AM
well, you certainly implied that.

No, you did hasty conclusions. Because I have a bad memory I need to compensate it "calculating" things I don't remember from things I do remember. This is perhaps the reason for my ability to understand complex musical structures.

I don't have absolute pitch either. I don't know what the first note is but I identify intervals, consonance/dissonance of chords etc. I hear everything but in relative form.

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mahlertitan

#182
Quote from: 71 dB on April 28, 2007, 07:33:03 AM
No, you did hasty conclusions. Because I have a bad memory I need to compensate it "calculating" things I don't remember from things I do remember. This is perhaps the reason for my ability to understand complex musical structures.

I don't have absolute pitch either. I don't know what the first note is but I identify intervals, consonance/dissonance of chords etc. I hear everything but in relative form.


so, you are special then, we simply can't grasp your genius.

i am listening to your symphony no.2, i will know whether you are a genius or not after i listened to all of it.

71 dB

Quote from: MahlerTitan on April 28, 2007, 07:47:10 AM
so, you are special then, we simply can't grasp your genius.

I don't think I am a genius. Elgarians just seem to understand something other people don't.

Quote from: MahlerTitan on April 28, 2007, 07:47:10 AMi am listening to your symphony no.2, i will know whether you are a genius or not after i listened to all of it.

Thank you MT for your interest! All kind of feedback is welcome.
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Haffner

Quote from: 71 dB on April 28, 2007, 06:19:52 AM


Andy claims to enjoy my 2nd symphony (is he just being polite?).





Nope. I liked your symphony all three times I've heard it, including the first time last December I believe. But I'm far from being musically "adept", I just teach guitar in Burlington, Vermont. But, I like to think of myself as liking good music, as naive as that sounds.

Haffner

I read and study scores, but I think listening to music is integral toward playing, writing, and everything else concerning music. If 71 wrote his Symphony #2 (Haven't checked out #1 yet) without very little understanding of music and/or scores, he's definitely not doing bad at all.

But again, I am a 40 year old (electric! gasp!) guitar teacher from Burlington,Vermont.

mahlertitan

Okay i am done listening symphony no.2.

my thoughts:
- the only thing "classical" about the symphony is it's name "symphony no 2" and the fact that is is scored for classical instruments.
- very little emphasis on organization, no trace of Sonata Form, instead i get a sea of sound
- from an academic point of view, this work is laughable, as it doesn't demonstrate composer's knowledge of any of the known classical devices: harmony, counterpoint, development,etc.... but as a piece from an amateur who knows close to nothing about theory, it's an impressive effort.
- take a few lessens in theory first, then write music.

you could start here:
www.musictheory.net

knight66

ZB, Thanks for typing that out. It is the Barbirolli I first had and consistently return to. I detect pain and longing and a kind of deconstruction into nothingness in that first movement. He is really stretching the language. Finally we get in the last movement some consolation. It is quite a journey.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Cato

Quote from: Haffner on April 28, 2007, 08:01:08 AM


But again, I am a 40 year old (electric! gasp!) guitar teacher from Burlington,Vermont.

Dude, how many amps are needed to get you going at your advanced age?

(I always thought you were a 20-something!)   ;D
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

71 dB

Quote from: Haffner on April 28, 2007, 07:56:08 AM
Nope. I liked your symphony all three times I've heard it, including the first time last December I believe. But I'm far from being musically "adept", I just teach guitar in Burlington, Vermont. But, I like to think of myself as liking good music, as naive as that sounds.

I'm glad you like it Andy. Three times is an impressive amount of listening!

Quote from: Haffner on April 28, 2007, 08:01:08 AM
I read and study scores, but I think listening to music is integral toward playing, writing, and everything else concerning music. If 71 wrote his Symphony #2 (Haven't checked out #1 yet) without very little understanding of music and/or scores, he's definitely not doing bad at all.

Forget my 1st symphony Andy.  ;D It's not a symphony at all even in my scale. It's a cacophony. I learned a lot between #1 and #2.

Quote from: MahlerTitan on April 28, 2007, 08:12:54 AM
Okay i am done listening symphony no.2.

my thoughts:
- the only thing "classical" about the symphony is it's name "symphony no 2" and the fact that is is scored for classical instruments.
- very little emphasis on organization, no trace of Sonata Form, instead i get a sea of sound
- from an academic point of view, this work is laughable, as it doesn't demonstrate composer's knowledge of any of the known classical devices: harmony, counterpoint, development,etc.... but as a piece from an amateur who knows close to nothing about theory, it's an impressive effort.
- take a few lessens in theory first, then write music.

you could start here:
www.musictheory.net


Thanks for the feedback MT! Thanks for listening!
I agree pretty much with everything you say.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

zamyrabyrd

Quote from: 71 dB on April 27, 2007, 02:35:37 PM
Yes. The tempo of Mahler's slow movememts aren't that slow and he doesn't seem to have really fast movements. Also, the weighting of musical dimensions remain almost constant. Other composers weight usually melody in slow moments and rhythm in fast movements.

Yikes, get a grip! I was lucky enough to see Bernstein conduct the 9th in Tel Aviv with the IPO, August 1985. Afterwards, visibly depleted he returned to the stage to acknowledge the intense applause and only clutching the score as the last word. He himself regarded this work in the inner sanctum of music and so do I. In fact it will be a labor of love to type out the following from the same book, p. 319-21

"...Only then comes the fourth and last movement, the Adagio, the final farewell. It takes the form of a prayer, Mahler's last chorale, his closing hymn so to speak; and it prays for the restoration of life, of tonality, of faith.  This is tonality unashamed, presented in all aspects ranging from the diatonic simplicity of the hymn tune that opens it through every possible chromatic ambiguity. It's also a passionate prayer, moving from one climax to another, each more searing than the last. But there are no solutions...

And so we come to the final incredible page. And this page, I think, is the closest we have ever come in any work of art, to experiencing the very act of dying, of giving it all up.

The slowness of this page is terrifying: Adagissimo, he writes the slowest possible musical direction; and then langsam (slow), esterbend (dying away) zoegernd (hesitating); and if all those were not enough to indicate the near stoppage of time, he adds ausserest langsam (extremely slow) in the very last bars. It is terrifying and paralyzing, as the strands of sound disintegrate. We hold on to them, hovering between hope and submission. And one by one, these spidery strands connecting us to life melt away, vanish from our fingers even as we hold them. We cling to them as they dematerialize; we are holding two--then one. One, and suddenly none. For a petrifying moment there is only silence..."

Slow enough for you????

There is more but you can read the book and listen to the music with respect. To the foregoing, I would add the Ewig of the Lied von der Erde and also the end of the Pathetique Symphony by Tschaikovsky.

ZB
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one."

― Charles MacKay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

BachQ

Quote from: zamyrabyrd on April 28, 2007, 10:10:33 AM
it prays for the restoration of life, of tonality, of faith.  This is tonality unashamed, presented in all aspects ranging from the diatonic simplicity of the hymn tune that opens it through every possible chromatic ambiguity. It's also a passionate prayer, moving from one climax to another, each more searing than the last. But there are no solutions...

Nice passage, ZB.  Long live tonality!

knight66

Thanks again ZB, it is good to learn those insights.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

71 dB

When I talk about slow and fast music I don't mean only tempo but more importantly "spectrum of events". If you double the tempo but use twice longer notes there is still the same amount of event per second. Mahler's "spectrum of events" remains almost the same even if the tempo vary a lot.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

greg

Quote from: 71 dB on April 28, 2007, 11:01:53 AM
When I talk about slow and fast music I don't mean only tempo but more importantly "spectrum of events". If you double the tempo but use twice longer notes there is still the same amount of event per second. Mahler's "spectrum of events" remains almost the same even if the tempo vary a lot.
I think I'm starting to understand what you're saying now- see, if you said that in the first place, we'd be less confused.  8)

Haffner

Quote from: Cato on April 28, 2007, 08:42:05 AM
Dude, how many amps are needed to get you going at your advanced age?

(I always thought you were a 20-something!)   ;D




You are very kind. It only takes me an old Ford car battery to juice me up for animated activities during the day.

MishaK

Quote from: 71 dB on April 28, 2007, 11:01:53 AM
When I talk about slow and fast music I don't mean only tempo but more importantly "spectrum of events". If you double the tempo but use twice longer notes there is still the same amount of event per second. Mahler's "spectrum of events" remains almost the same even if the tempo vary a lot.

Except that it is still objectively wrong what you're saying.

mahlertitan

Quote from: 71 dB on April 28, 2007, 11:01:53 AM
When I talk about slow and fast music I don't mean only tempo but more importantly "spectrum of events". If you double the tempo but use twice longer notes there is still the same amount of event per second. Mahler's "spectrum of events" remains almost the same even if the tempo vary a lot.

so? what if Mahler's music isn't fast, or isn't slow? What does speed has to do with the quality of the music?

DavidW

Elgar do you mean in your example that events = notes?  In fact why not just say that so there is no ambiguity.

So are we talking about Mahler's density of notes per second here?  If you played a Mahler symphony by shortening the duration of the notes and playing at a faster tempo then the density of notes per second will go up, but does that make the symphony better?  I would say that it wouldn't, because you would lose the emotional impact of the symphony.

I'm not surprised that you can turn what appears on the surface to be a quite reasonable statement on Mahler's music on it's head.  If it couldn't be turned on it's head, then you would have just invented a quantitative measure of quality.  And we know that such a notion does not make sense in the arts.

71 dB

Quote from: O Mensch on April 29, 2007, 08:53:14 AM
Except that it is still objectively wrong what you're saying.

Objective things can be proved. So, prove me wrong.

Quote from: MahlerTitan on April 29, 2007, 09:05:03 AM
so? what if Mahler's music isn't fast, or isn't slow? What does speed has to do with the quality of the music?

I was just telling about my obsevations of Mahler's music. Quality is an other thing.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"