The Great Mahler Debate

Started by Greta, April 21, 2007, 08:06:00 AM

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71 dB

Quote from: O Mensch on May 01, 2007, 09:03:51 AM
Sure, but unless you have perfect pitch and are completely "fluent" in solfege, the sore does help massively in understanding what you're hearing and hearing things with new ears when you listen the next time.

Music is based on relative pitch between notes. No need for perfect pitch.

Quote from: O Mensch on May 01, 2007, 09:03:51 AMStop! Wait a minute. Earlier you objected to things going "by the book", now you speak of musical laws? Apart from the physics of electromagnetic radiation in the audible spectrum over time, what are these? I don't doubt that all kinds of noise are analyzed by the same part of the brain, but structurally breakbeat will offer only a limited "vocabulary" for analyzing other forms and idioms of music.

Musical laws determine what sounds good and what doesn't. Music theory tries to create relatively simple rules for that but can never describe of subtleties of musical laws. When I make music I use the musical laws to guide my while composers with music theory studies used the theories (and perhaps musical laws in some extent).

Breakbeat offers naturally limited tools to analyse other kind of music but limited is better than nothing.

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 01, 2007, 09:07:36 AM
And how do you know what Elgar's scores are if  you don't read them??? How do you know whether a conductor's intepretation is what the score says? Or do you just "free-think" your way again?

I'm not paranoid in this matter. I trust the conductors.

Quote from: Florestan on May 01, 2007, 09:15:44 AM
Precisely. Now, what's the connection between them?

I said I don't know! I haven't need these connections in my life! If I need someday I will use my time finding the answers!
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

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karlhenning

Quote from: 71 dB on May 01, 2007, 08:54:41 AM
You should read more things "this ridiculous". You could learn something new Karl!

Oh, but I have, I have! I've learnt that there are no boundaries to your readiness to amuse us all by taking your fuzzy-speak and tacking it onto (drumroll, please):

Free-thinking! Ta-daaaa!

QuoteEverything's got to do with everything in the mind of a free-thinker!

QuoteI look for logical connections between every possible things.

Balderdash! Logic will not be seen in the same house with you.  (I know;  we've spoken on the subject.)

Israfel the Black

Quote from: 71 dB on May 01, 2007, 03:36:56 AM
But, before I have heard Mahler's work several times I don't say anything... ...if Mahler hits me then there is Bruckner to be understood...  ;D

I believe Bruckner is easier to understand than Mahler. He is unplagued by elements of grotesque and playful wit to abstract his music (though I enjoy Mahler immensely). I highly suggest trying his 5th, 7th, and then perhaps the 9th. The Celibidache 3rd on EMI is a very personal favorite. I am an admirer of Elgar, and I find the passion of his music only rivaled by none other than Bruckner. He is, to me, perhaps one of the most passionate composers to ever write music. His music is genuinely mature, and rich with harmonies that can only be described as transcendental. I will confess, it took me at least a week for him to truly grab me, but with patience, I think you will find he has some truly rewarding music.

mahlertitan

Quote from: Israfel the Black on May 01, 2007, 09:33:54 AM
I believe Bruckner is easier to understand than Mahler. He is unplagued by elements of grotesque and playful wit to abstract his music (though I enjoy Mahler immensely). I highly suggest trying his 5th, 7th, and then perhaps the 9th. The Celibidache 3rd on EMI is a very personal favorite. I am an admirer of Elgar, and I find the passion of his music only rivaled by none other than Bruckner. He is, to me, perhaps one of the most passionate composers to ever write music. His music is genuinely mature, and rich with harmonies that can only be described as transcendental. I will confess, it took me at least a week for him to truly grab me, but with patience, I think you will find he has some truly rewarding music.

if he doesn't get mahler, what chance do yoou think he will get Bruckner?

Choo Choo

Quote from: Israfel the Black on May 01, 2007, 09:32:00 AM
I will confess, it took me at least a week for [Bruckner] to truly grab me, but with patience, I think you will find he has some truly rewarding music.

"At least a week" ?? :o   It took me years - really, years - before finally I "got" it.

You really should not always expect to get to the bottom of things instantly.  Snap judgements are rarely the best.

mahlertitan

Quote from: Choo Choo on May 01, 2007, 09:37:39 AM
"At least a week" ?? :o   It took me years - really, years - before finally I "got" it.

You really should not always expect to get to the bottom of things instantly.  Snap judgements are rarely the best.

I agree, enjoying Bruckner is a acquire taste. so far, i only get his 4,7,8,9 symphonies.

Florestan

Quote from: 71 dB on May 01, 2007, 09:28:48 AM
I said I don't know! I haven't need these connections in my life! If I need someday I will use my time finding the answers!
Don't use your time, it's easy as 1,2,3.

Their family names all starts with M. ;D
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

MishaK

Quote from: 71 dB on May 01, 2007, 09:28:48 AM
Music is based on relative pitch between notes. No need for perfect pitch.

So I take it you're fluent in solfege and you could write down a melody at first hearing?

Quote from: 71 dB on May 01, 2007, 09:28:48 AM
Musical laws determine what sounds good and what doesn't. Music theory tries to create relatively simple rules for that but can never describe of subtleties of musical laws. When I make music I use the musical laws to guide my while composers with music theory studies used the theories (and perhaps musical laws in some extent).

Would you care to elaborate on some of these "laws" that theory supposedly misses? What does "good" mean in your first sentence of the above quote? If you haven't studied theory, how do you know what composers study?

karlhenning

O Mensch, no don't ask him to elaborate!  This is laughable enough on its own!  :)

Quote from: 71 dB on May 01, 2007, 09:28:48 AM
Musical laws determine what sounds good and what doesn't. Music theory tries to create relatively simple rules for that but can never describe of subtleties of musical laws. When I make music I use the musical laws to guide my while composers with music theory studies used the theories (and perhaps musical laws in some extent).

71 dB

Quote from: Florestan on May 01, 2007, 09:42:46 AM
Don't use your time, it's easy as 1,2,3.

Their family names all starts with M. ;D

I noticed that immediately but that is an irrelevant connection. The real connections are most probably extremely complex.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

Israfel the Black

Quote from: Choo Choo on May 01, 2007, 09:37:39 AM
"At least a week" ?? :o   It took me years - really, years - before finally I "got" it.

You really should not always expect to get to the bottom of things instantly.  Snap judgements are rarely the best.

I agree. It is true, however, some composers click sooner with people than others. It took me months before I ever got Schubert. But for me, I find Bruckner similar to Elgar in many respects, and less related to Mahler of whom he is so commonly associated. Aside from the scale and size of their symphonies, they have little in common. I find Bruckner's music is more in spirit with that of Elgar, hence my recommendation to 71 dB.

71 dB

Quote from: Israfel the Black on May 01, 2007, 09:50:07 AM
I agree. It is true, however, some composers click sooner with people than others. It took me months before I ever got Schubert. But for me, I find Bruckner similar to Elgar in many respects, and less related to Mahler of whom he is so commonly associated. Aside from the scale and size of their symphonies, they have little in common. I find Bruckner's music is more in spirit with that of Elgar, hence my recommendation to 71 dB.

Okay Israfel the Black. Bruckner will be checked in the future...  ;)
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

Israfel the Black


karlhenning

One thing's for sure:  threads are a great deal more amusing when 71 dB makes it all about (a) Elgar, (b) complexity, or both  ::)

Florestan

Quote from: 71 dB on May 01, 2007, 09:49:43 AM
I noticed that immediately but that is an irrelevant connection.
Believe me, my friend, it's the only connection.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

71 dB

Quote from: Florestan on May 01, 2007, 09:56:06 AM
Believe me, my friend, it's the only connection.

Don't be so sure my friend!
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

karlhenning

Quote from: Florestan on May 01, 2007, 09:56:06 AM
Believe me, my friend, it's the only connection.

And being the only, possesses undeniable relevance  0:)

Quote from: 71 dB on May 01, 2007, 09:58:02 AM
Don't be so sure my friend!

Oh-ho!  We're taking our Freethinking Vitamins, eh?

Florestan

Quote from: 71 dB on May 01, 2007, 09:58:02 AM
Don't be so sure my friend!
Well, it would really make my day should you point me to another one. :)
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Choo Choo

Quote from: Israfel the Black on May 01, 2007, 09:50:07 AM
I agree. It is true, however, some composers click sooner with people than others. It took me months before I ever got Schubert. But for me, I find Bruckner similar to Elgar in many respects, and less related to Mahler of whom he is so commonly associated. Aside from the scale and size of their symphonies, they have little in common. I find Bruckner's music is more in spirit with that of Elgar, hence my recommendation to 71 dB.

Interesting - considering that there is a direct link between the music of Schubert and Bruckner, in terms of the one influencing the other.

(My point is only that there may be all different connections between musical works, and it may be hazardous to make inferences on the basis of some connections rather than others.)

71 dB

Quote from: Florestan on May 01, 2007, 09:59:03 AM
Well, it would really make my day should you point me to another one. :)

Well, they are all artists in their own way. Perhaps the connection is found in that direction? Perhaps they are all famous for the same reasons?
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"