Ottevanger's Omphaloskeptic Outpost

[Karl Henning]

Certainly is. I didn't want to get this bit wrong, so I am delighted he approves.

And not only confirmation of the material, but points for style!

[Luke]

This is probably better on a General board, but I'd rather keep it here for now -

I wonder if I could pool the group's knowledge to see if anyone can suggest things I might not have covered for (you guessed it) my book about landscape and place in British music. I should stress, I'm talking not about any piece with a topographical name but music which was specifically inspired by or connected to the composer's presence in a particular landscape or location. E.g Mendelssohn's Scottish Symphony, (whose opening was inspired by an evening in the Abbey of Holyrood Palace), but not Haydn's Oxford Symphony (named thusly because it was performed at the composer's Doctorate ceremony).

The specific area I'm interested in right now is early examples of this sort of thing – anything pre-1830. British or not. Any ideas?

 

[Karl Henning]

This is probably better on a General board, but I'd rather keep it here for now -
I wonder if I could pool the group's knowledge to see if anyone can suggest things I might not have covered for (you guessed it) my book about landscape and place in British music. I should stress, I'm talking not about any piece with a topographical name but music which was specifically inspired by or connected to the composer's presence in a particular landscape or location. E.g Mendelssohn's Scottish Symphony, (whose opening was inspired by an evening in the Abbey of Holyrood Palace), but not Haydn's Oxford Symphony (named thusly because it was performed at the composer's Doctorate ceremony).
The specific area I'm interested in right now is early examples of this sort of thing – anything pre-1830. British or not. Any ideas?

 

A piece which Cesar put me onto, Ernst Toch's Big Ben: Fantasy-Variations on the Westminster Chimes, Op. 62 he wrote in exile, in 1934, I wonder if in fact he was in London at the time.

[Luke]

Thanks, Karl. That looks like a fun piece! What I'm looking for is older though - any examples from before 1830? (The Mendelssohn excluded)

[Florestan]

Thanks, Karl. That looks like a fun piece! What I'm looking for is older though - any examples from before 1830? (The Mendelssohn excluded)

I performed a quick Google search and alas! it retrieved nothing at all. Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure there must have been some English or expat composers active in England at the time who wrote songs and ballads inspired by the places they lived in or visited. Have you digged this mine or are you interested in orchestral music only?

[Luke]

I performed a quick Google search and alas! it retrieved nothing at all. Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure there must have been some English or expat composers active in England at the time who wrote songs and ballads inspired by the places they lived in or visited. Have you digged this mine or are you interested in orchestral music only?

Thank you! I'm interested in everything, although textless pieces keep it 'purer' because the line is simpler: place-leads-to-music as opposed to place-leads-to-poem (which-then-has-music-attached). The truth is, I suspect there is nothing, as it's a very 'Romantic' way to write. But nevertheless it's surprising that there's so little before 1829 (I've possibly found some scraps but nothing more)

(There are of course examples of composers who went for walks in the countryside around their homes and came back bursting with music, Beethoven being the most obvious example, or Gluck, who supposedly composed his Orpheus at a piano he had had brought outside, but that's not quite the same thing)

Finding nothing would not be a failure, it would in fact help clarify my argument, but I don't want to miss something obvious, or even not-so-obvious. 

[Florestan]

Thank you! I'm interested in everything, although textless pieces keep it 'purer' because the line is simpler: place-leads-to-music as opposed to place-leads-to-poem (which-then-has-music-attached). The truth is, I suspect there is nothing, as it's a very 'Romantic' way to write. But nevertheless it's surprising that there's so little before 1829 (I've possibly found some scraps but nothing more)

(There are of course examples of composers who went for walks in the countryside around their homes and came back bursting with music, Beethoven being the most obvious example, or Gluck, who supposedly composed his Orpheus at a piano he had had brought outside, but that's not quite the same thing)

Finding nothing would not be a failure, it would in fact help clarify my argument, but I don't want to miss something obvious, or even not-so-obvious. 

To the bolded phrase: that is my impression too. Still, I would check the solo piano music written at that time, I'd be surprised if there wasn't anything of interest. After all, 1800-1830 is within the timeframe of Early Romanticism, so something should pop up, methinks.

Anyway, good luck with your book, it certainly looks like something I would greatly enjoy reading.

[Luke]

Again, thanks. That's how my thoughts tend, too. But I've been investigating in every nook and cranny I can think of (solo piano is actually where I go first, because it tends to be where composers do their initial experimenting - the sketch before the oil painting) but can't find anything. In fact, there probably were such pieces, or such inspirational moments, I should say, but then the composers seem to have gone home, tidied them up and called them sonatas (or whatever) or generic things like 'The River' making the original moment, if there was one, hard to trace! It surprises me that I've found nothing, though - I've been working on the book for a long time, and I'm convinced I've missed something obvious, but it doesn't seem so. I'm getting to the very end, which is why I'm trying to make sure by asking you guys to flick through your own pooled knowledge. It's much appreciated.

But if 1829 is the earliest example, it makes Mendelssohn a more revolutionary composer than his mild manner suggests!

[Florestan]

Again, thanks. That's how my thoughts tend, too. But I've been investigating in every book and cranny I can think of (solo piano is actually where I go first) but can't find anything. In fact, there probably were such pieces, or such inspirational moments, I should say, but then the composers seem to have gone home, tidied them up and called them sonatas (or whatever) making them hard to find! It surprises me that I've found nothing - I've been working on the book for a long time, and im convinced I've missed something obvious, but it doesn't seem so.

Which makes Mendelssohn a more significant composer than his mild manner suggests!

Indeed. His Scottish Piano Fantasies are inspired by any particular places, or are they just generic?

[Luke]

The Scottish piano pieces don't seem to have any specific sources - but the Welsh ones do (the Caprices, op 16). Everyone forgets them - I did, too - but they're actually the first such pieces he completed. The Scottish Symphony and The Hebrides were inspired a few days earlier, but written later. Much later, in the case of the Symphony, whose opening is, however, prefigured in the first of the Caprices - compare the first seconds of

....

...

and...

[Karl Henning]

The Scottish piano pieces don't seem to have any specific sources - but the Welsh ones do (the Caprices, op 16). Everyone forgets them - I did, too - but they're actually the first such pieces he completed. The Scottish Symphony and The Hebrides were inspired a few days earlier, but written later. Much later, in the case of the Symphony, whose opening is, however, prefigured in the first of the Caprices - compare the first seconds of

....

...

and...

Most interesting.

[Luke]

Yes, it's interesting, because the idea for the opening of the Symphony was the first such idea we know of - springing up on him in that ruined cloister on a dusky evening in late August. But its echoes are still there a few weeks later, in Wales - and that's where we first hear them. That Welsh piece had its own 'inspirational source' - all three of them did, connected to the house he was staying at in Flintshire (and to the daughters of the house) - but the Scottish thing seems to be mixed up in it too.

The picture is from my visit to Holyrood abbey in February, the spot where the beginning of the Scottish Symphony came to Mendelssohn...   

[Luke]

...and this, taken a few days later, is the rivulet in the Welsh village of Rhydymwyn which is (most likely) the inspiration for the third Caprice, op 16/3

[Luke]

Having received a positive reply, the complete book has now been sent to Daniel Jaffe, too (critic/author, previously of this parish, which is where we 'met'). 

[Luke]

On a related note, the original purpose of the book was some kind of therapy, working on the conceit that, by being in those places where music came to great figures, I might be able to get my own stalled compositional engine going too. And it (sort of, kind of, ish) worked, in that I was finally able to write over a couple of lines without screwing it up and throwing it away. That hadn't happened for years. This week, including this morning, I've been able to do a bit more - just a page or so, but I don't hate it, and that is progress. Perhaps it's coming back, in dribs and drabs.

[Karl Henning]

On a related note, the original purpose of the book was some kind of therapy, working on the conceit that, by being in those places where music came to great figures, I might be able to get my own stalled compositional engine going too. And it (sort of, kind of, ish) worked, in that I was finally able to write over a couple of lines without screwing it up and throwing it away. That hadn't happened for years. This week, including this morning, I've been able to do a bit more - just a page or so, but I don't hate it, and that is progress. Perhaps it's coming back, in dribs and drabs.

That's the ticket! Accept the incremental progress!

[Luke]

No! I want a Gothic-shaming megasymphony NOW! 

[Karl Henning]

No! I want a Gothic-shaming megasymphony NOW! 

Nothing wrong with wild ambitions, I reckon....

[Cato]

No! I want a Gothic-shaming megasymphony NOW! 

YES!  It is about time! 

Something BIG and DRAMATIC!

How about: The Tragedy of Satan in Las Vegas       


If you don't like Las Vegas, you could pick another place whose EVIL is even worse, like Poughkeepsie!   

...I was finally able to write over a couple of lines without screwing it up and throwing it away. That hadn't happened for years. This week, including this morning, I've been able to do a bit more - just a page or so, but I don't hate it, and that is progress. Perhaps it's coming back, in dribs and drabs.

Excellent news, Luke!!!

I will repeat: I have considered your works proof that you are one of England's finest composers right now!

[Karl Henning]

How about: The Tragedy of Satan in Las Vegas 

With the interpolated ballet, Dance of the Chips! We wants it!