Ottevanger's Omphaloskeptic Outpost

[karlhenning]

Tut, tut, Luke!  The feeling of 'inertia', all right, that's understandable, and you've got to get the pump primed again;  regrettable, but hardly fatal, and we'll all rally 'round.

The disenchantment, though, is nonsense! You've got the makings of a fine brace of pieces there.  I go through this all the time with Maria, who not infrequently goes through a period of hating whatever painting she's just been working on.  I don't quite understand what's happening (I haven't really experienced any comparable aversion to my composition, for instance -- and no, that doesn't mean that my musical work is at all better than, or even equal to, Maria's painting), but from time to time I'm in this somewhat surreal situation of seeing before me a lovely canvas, yet I'm in the same room as an artist who wants to paint over it.

So, I don't know, maybe this is something like what you're stepping through, Luke.  But there is nothing the least wrong with your scores, and you just need to find your way back on track to write up the ending to Ascent. Patience!

[karlhenning]

Maybe it will help if some of us suggest an ending for the Ascent?

I'm thinking wind machines, here . . . .

[M forever]

Going through a period of feeling intensely disenchanted with my orchestral piece. Having not worked on it for a week or two, all the 'rush' I feel whilst composing is gone, and looking at it more dispassionately I'm really not at all sure about it for all sorts of reasons. But I have to decide what to do about this quickly, of course - something needs to be done by (let's say) November. I can wait it out and see if I grow to like the piece again - that's happened before. Or I can rewrite it, though at present I can't see how. Or I can start something new, though I like the basic premise of this piece a great deal and would write something connected to it. Not a nice feeling, this. 

But a good thing and a good sign. All good composers were/are fiercely self-critical. Talent and craftsmanship are important, but that quality is probably even more important.

[greg]

Going through a period of feeling intensely disenchanted with my orchestral piece. Having not worked on it for a week or two, all the 'rush' I feel whilst composing is gone, and looking at it more dispassionately I'm really not at all sure about it for all sorts of reasons. But I have to decide what to do about this quickly, of course - something needs to be done by (let's say) November. I can wait it out and see if I grow to like the piece again - that's happened before. Or I can rewrite it, though at present I can't see how. Or I can start something new, though I like the basic premise of this piece a great deal and would write something connected to it. Not a nice feeling, this. 

That's how I feel sometimes..... well, November can be here before you know it. That's all I'm going to say.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I am as Karl in this in never having had any aversion to anything I have ever written. BUT - getting stuck is very familar. When that happens I always am overlooking something. So - find out what is missing.

I wonder if your disssatisfaction has something to do with the unity of the piece, as it is a structure with an old and a new element? Perhaps you have to reinforce - if that is at all possible - the connection between the two pieces?

You'll get there.

[lukeottevanger]

I am as Karl in this in never having had any aversion to anything I have ever written. BUT - getting stuck is very familar. When that happens I always am overlooking something. So - find out what is missing.

I wonder if your disssatisfaction has something to do with the unity of the piece, as it is a structure with an old and a new element? Perhaps you have to reinforce - if that is at all possible - the connection between the two pieces?

You'll get there.

Thanks guys.

I don't feel exactly stuck, just as if I'm suddenly seeing the piece in a new way. You might be right that the bipartite old-new structure of the piece has something to do with this, but OTOH I do feel there's some connection there somewhere (specifically musical ones as well as ones that only exist in my head!). What's more, one of the only things that's making me feel better about the second piece is that the first piece prepares for it. The second piece starts with a bang, and its structure, effectively, is to do with the thinning-out of that bang to a single point. But it's only going to be about 5 or 6 minutes long - and so far only about 4 - and there's something in the proportions of this big bang fading so quickly that I'm not happy with. The presence of an equally long, very slow and predominantly very quiet first movement helps to ammeliorate the balance a little, I think.

Tell you what, guys, have a look at the score up to the point at which it is 'finished' (though evidently it isn't really that either). The last page, where the music goes into 3/8, is just an indication of the sort of thing that will happen here, however. Please don't be afraid to point out any places where you sense structural or other problems. 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Thanks, Luke. I have to go The Hague shortly to borrow some books from the Royal Library - one of my favourite destinations -, but I'll have a(n amateur) look at the score later...

[Guido]

Cheers Luke! My score reading skills are really not up to much, so I can't really comment on the structure, unfortunately.

I did have a few tiny points to make when reading through the cello part (and string parts in general) - currently open strings and harmonics are both notated with the same symbol - a circle. I find it nice if open string are notated with a 0 rather than an o just to show the difference... a petty thing I know, but you would be surprised at what a difference it makes.

The other thing is that is bar 67 - the cello part and viola part have harmonics which are rather easier to find in first position when sitting in the orchestral section. However, I have foud that people in general are woefully ignorant of how to play harmonics, even simple ones like these - that it would be a fourth on an open string doesn't really occur to them. Even very talented players at Cambridge have difficulty with this (to my continual surprise).

Sorry for these tiny nit picky things , I'm sure they're the last thing on your mind at the moment... Just thought I'd mention them before I forgot. I look forward to being able to hear it.

[lukeottevanger]

Cheers Luke! My score reading skills are really not up to much, so I can't really comment on the structure, unfortunately.

I did have a few tiny points to make when reading through the cello part (and string parts in general) - currently open strings and harmonics are both notated with the same symbol - a circle. I find it nice if open string are notated with a 0 rather than an o just to show the difference... a petty thing I know, but you would be surprised at what a difference it makes.

The other thing is that is bar 67 - the cello part and viola part have harmonics which are rather easier to find in first position when sitting in the orchestral section. However, I have foud that people in general are woefully ignorant of how to play harmonics, even simple ones like these - that it would be a fourth on an open string doesn't really occur to them. Even very talented players at Cambridge have difficulty with this (to my continual surprise).

Sorry for these tiny nit picky things , I'm sure they're the last thing on your mind at the moment... Just thought I'd mention them before I forgot. I look forward to being able to hear it.

Thanks Guido

Re the harmonic sign - unfortunately there's only one sign on Sibelius (I think), or at least only one that's quick to do! Re the high harmonics, you might be right. It might be my imagination or peculiarities of my own cello, but I always prefer to play passages like this 'in the right place', as it were, rather than as open+fourth harmonics - they seem to have better resonance, and to ring on better, as this passage demands, though as I say, that may be more in my head than anything. But I may renotate them, you have a point.

[karlhenning]

Just parenthetically (breakfast is nearly ready, and I've just been puttering to get the laptop WiFi connection restored) . . . the Royal Library at The Hague is just the place I'd be delighted to hang with Johan 

[lukeottevanger]

Am I right? This place? Hmm, not bad!

[karlhenning]

Well, I've only just invited myself, so I should hope you might come along, as well, Luke.

[lukeottevanger]

Count me in!

[lukeottevanger]

Libraries I have known: the library of my university days:

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Alas, that's the entrance to Het Binnenhof (the Inner Court). You can find the Dutch Parliament there. For enlightenment, though, I go here:



You can see 'KB' - Koninklijke Bibliotheek...

[lukeottevanger]

Blame Google. And my ignorance. 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Blame Google. And my ignorance. 

The seat of Dutch government isn't world-famous...

[Guido]

Thanks Guido

Re the harmonic sign - unfortunately there's only one sign on Sibelius (I think), or at least only one that's quick to do! Re the high harmonics, you might be right. It might be my imagination or peculiarities of my own cello, but I always prefer to play passages like this 'in the right place', as it were, rather than as open+fourth harmonics - they seem to have better resonance, and to ring on better, as this passage demands, though as I say, that may be more in my head than anything. But I may renotate them, you have a point.

Oh no, you are definitely right that they ring more up 'in the right place' - this is just a fact of string physics. I'm not sure how one might specify this... The only way I can think of adding 0 (that is zeros rather than circles) is by adding lyrics to the part and just putting a 0 above ever relevant note, then changing the font size to very small. A bit clumsy perhaps, but it might work

[karlhenning]

I'll revisit your score in an hour-ish, Luke.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Okay, Luke. I just listened to Elegy and Ascent. I can hear three things - a movement up, a movement down and a plateau of fulfilment. There is a battle going on between melancholy and joy. The Elegy droops sadly, but it also gathers strength. When the Ascent starts everything that was repressed in the Elegy bursts into new life. I think the two pieces are one and keeping them separate is unnecessary. Descent and ascent are what matters. There are wonderful things in the Ascent, I can hear a sort of ecstasy even. The remainder of the (one) piece I would imagine as a battle between the forces of descent and ascent. I can even imagine the piece ending where it began, like a sort of pyramid.

These are my first thoughts. I am already quite taken with many of the things I have heard!

If you unify the piece, it should get a new title.

P.S. You were right in thinking the two pieces are connected. To this listener it certainly sounds that way.

Morning addition - my first reaction is somewhat impressionistic, I know...