Abbado's Lohengrin

[Sean]

I've been listening to this lately and can see all the more why the big W gave up on composing for a good few years to think things over- I thought Kempe's version didn't make sense of the melodic lines so well but now more sure than ever it's the music that's the problem, Wagner not yet working out how to reconcile his impulsiveness and vigour with paragraphing and structural logic. It must be the least persuasive of the three middle period operas, and with an appropriately equivocal libretto.

[knight66]

Apples of discord tossed into different threads decrying religion, Germans andnow Wagner. Some here might conclude you don't like your face the shape it is. Any more sacred cows to slaughter on Day 1? Or are we to bait our breath until tomorrow?

Mike

[BachQ]

Be nice to Sean ......... he'll only be with us for 3 or 4 more days ......... So we should treat each post as something very special ........

[knight66]

I would not deny they are special. I am with you in that thought.

Mike

[BachQ]

Yes, Sean has some very unique insights, which we should nurture and harness ........

[marvinbrown]

I've been listening to this lately and can see all the more why the big W gave up on composing for a good few years to think things over- I thought Kempe's version didn't make sense of the melodic lines so well but now more sure than ever it's the music that's the problem, Wagner not yet working out how to reconcile his impulsiveness and vigour with paragraphing and structural logic. It must be the least persuasive of the three middle period operas, and with an appropriately equivocal libretto.

   Sean, oh dear where do I start by responding to this.  Well,  for starters Lohengrin does have that famous or rather ubiquitous "here comes the bride" melody at the beginning of Act 3 and Act 2 with Ortrud and Telramund has some very dark beautiful music as Telramund and Ortrud argue over the fate that befell Telramund during his lost battle with Lohengrin.  Also the overture is quite sublime.  However, I doubt anybody expected Wagner to produce the magic that was to come in his later "mature" music dramas after they had heard Lohengrin- yes the big W  certainly has come a long way since Lohengrin.

  PS: its great to have you back Sean  .

  marvin

[Sean]

Apples of discord tossed into different threads decrying religion, Germans andnow Wagner. Some here might conclude you don't like your face the shape it is. Any more sacred cows to slaughter on Day 1? Or are we to bait our breath until tomorrow?

Now you know I wouldn't slaughter sacred cows, that's an offence for a Hindu.

[max]

Why would a transitional work be any less perfect than what preceded it or what followed it? Lohengrin is deeper, far more beautiful and ergo more profound then any of the preceding works. Whatever flaws there may be - name me a work that doesn't have any - Wagner's art was more than capable to create a masterpiece as a 'midpoint' between the Before and After.

What creates genius are it's transitional stages because it's 'voyage' is greater. Wagner was 'transitional' in each of his works. We wonder what would have been accomplished by Beethoven AFTER the final quartets. This is not less true of Wagner after Parsifal.

[Sean]

Well it's certainly an opera that's always done well for itself, but I would argue there's a greyed-out routinish period feel to it- those long stretches that he was soon to make so much of do indeed begin to sound like longueurs; I do admire the piece and there's some great emerging heroism and onward drive, but of course if Wagner had written no more he'd be a small figure in music history. Tannhauser is the great work from the period.

[T-C]

Tannhauser is the great work from the period.

This is definitely not a new axiom. Music which sounds like longueurs to one pair of ears may sound sublime to another... 

For my taste and understanding of Wagner's music, Lohengrin is the better and the more advanced work in relation to Tannhauser. This is a transition work. Some parts of Lohengrin, like the beginning of Act II, with its dark orchestral colors, indicates the style that Wagner will develop in his later works. I prefer Lohengrin considerably to Tannhauser.

[Larry Rinkel]

This is definitely not a new axiom. Music which sounds like longueurs to one pair of ears may sound sublime to another... 

For my taste and understanding of Wagner's music, Lohengrin is the better and the more advanced work in relation to Tannhauser. This is a transition work. Some parts of Lohengrin, like the beginning of Act II, with its dark orchestral colors, indicates the style that Wagner will develop in his later works. I prefer Lohengrin considerably to Tannhauser.

Actually I prefer Dutchman to either, despite its inconsistencies and flaws. Unquestionably Lohengrin has a beautiful sound world and many masterly things, perhaps the most powerful being the Ortrud music in Act Two. But prior to Rheingold, Wagner had not learned to escape from his tendency towards routine, 4-bar phrases and rather stiff melodic patterns. With the start of the Ring, and more decisively with each later work, his rhythmic, harmonic, and melodic senses all grew far more flexible and interesting. To be honest, I haven't seen Lohengrin for years, and if I didn't hear it ever again I wouldn't particularly mind.

[marvinbrown]

I prefer Lohengrin considerably to Tannhauser.

  Well Verdi might agree with you, I remember reading that Verdi dozed off during a performance of Tannhauser....but then again Verdi could never really see eye-to-eye with any of Wagner's artwork.  I on the other hand prefer Tannhauser over Lohengrin and the Flying Dutchman.  The whole opening scene at the Venus Grotto is a personal favorite of mine- why Tannhausser would choose to leave that seductive goddess to run around with a bunch of men is something I can't figure out!!

  marvin

[Larry Rinkel]

  why Tannhausser would choose to leave that seductive goddess to run around with a bunch of men is something I can't figure out!!

This seems to posit an interpretation of Tannhaeuser that Wagner at his most gay could not be accused of . . . .

[Sean]

If Wagner was gay I'm a pink elephant- he is blood and death masculinity.

And nobody, even Verdi, could doze off in Tannhauser; Solti's Paris version is one of his finest records for sure, what a riot.

I know the Dresden from Haitink's dreamy nonesense, underlining that the bacchanalia was revised because the scene was simply underwritten- it's certainly stylistically anachronous but has to be preferable to the 1845...

Larry, the Dutchman is like it's going to kill somebody- I always got the feeling there was more power in it than it could actually sustain: the end seems to explode off into something else, nothing like it... I bought the Nelsson recording.

[T-C]

  Well Verdi might agree with you, I remember reading that Verdi dozed off during a performance of Tannhauser....

And Rossini said about Lohengrin:

"One cannot judge Lohengrin from a first hearing, and I certainly do not intend to hear it a second time."

[marvinbrown]

And Rossini said about Lohengrin:

"One cannot judge Lohengrin from a first hearing, and I certainly do not intend to hear it a second time."

  Funny how the "here comes the bride" melody and scene has been ingrained into our culture and it comes right out of Elsa's wedding to Lohengrin.  Wagner must have done something right with Lohengrin for it to have had such a cultural impact......lets face facts gentlemen, the melody stuck wouldn't you say??

  marvin

[Sean]

It's probably got something to do with the fact that the marriage was destined to fail.

[marvinbrown]

It's probably got something to do with the fact that the marriage was destined to fail.

  This is what happens when you dig deeply into your spouse's past.....some things are better left unsaid wouldn't you agree??


  marvin

[max]

why Tannhausser would choose to leave that seductive goddess to run around with a bunch of men is something I can't figure out!!

  marvin

That's what tragedy consists of, the wrong choices! All that 'redemption through love' can really make one miserable and in opera, dangerous to your health. I'm certain that Nietzsche would have reversed the outcome!

[Anne]

T-C:

"I prefer Lohengrin considerably to Tannhauser."

So do I.  The Prelude is so beautiful.  The notes in the beginning of it positively shimmer.  It comes under the heading "so beautiful it almost makes me cry."

I also prefer The Dutchman to Tannhauser.   To copy part of Larry's remark:  "If I didn't hear" Tannhauser "ever again, I wouldn't particularly mind."