Haydn cf Scarlatti harpsichord sonatas

[FideLeo]

I believe you are quite wrong here. The evidence that the pairs were intended to be played together is quite substantial. For one thing many of his contemporaries and followers followed the same pattern. For another there are often quite obvious motivic connections. The situation was of course confused by Longi whose edition is more or less at random. As far as we know the manuscripts were copied with the authority of the composer.

But if the pairs were intended as two parts of an entity then they would have appeared as one sonata rather than two, no?  I believe the composer intended some kind of flexibility here.  There are also occassionally "pairs" of three.  All in all not quite as sequenced or fixed as movements in a Haydn sonata.   

[Josquin des Prez]

BTW, i forgot to mention that imitation is only one aspect of contrapuntal writing, one that often gets too much focus (let's not forget that imitation is merely a stylistic branch of polyphony and doesn't define part writing in itself).

The other aspect of Scarlatti's contrapuntal mastery is the often complex dialog between all the voices, often on a level comparable to a string quartet. You could call it 'classical counterpoint' but you can find the same in the music of Bach so i suppose it falls into the realm of general polyphony.

I guess Mahler was right when he said there's was no such thing as harmony, only counterpoint (did i get the correct quote?).

[bwv 1080]

I recently bought the Schornsheim complete Haydn keyboard and curious to note parallels between the early sonatas for harpsichord and the Scarlatti: some (looking particularly at the Grove 1980 Scarlatti article) might include

Starting phrases as though half way through an idea, adding to the impulsiveness and onward drive.

Perhaps a relation to postmodern nihilistic, non-dialectical type criticism and a bliss-consciousness.

The constancy and containment of the harpsichord in each case compares with minimalist ecstasy- piano performances almost completely missing this.

No matter what the history and significance of compositional devices and techniques, they're treated in a similar juxtapositional, playful way; there's an irony and individuality, including false relations, overcomposition or imitation, the openings sometimes unstable in material and tonality.

Devices are treated as just more material for play, for instance in Scarlatti, the great baroque fugal gestures having no potency for him but just become one more of the contrasting textures, often appearing grotesque, taunting or irrational.

The constant English enthusiasm for the Scarlatti sonatas and Haydn reflects that culture's scepticism for theoretically driven structures: there's an inner form and intuitively perceived interrelations between the music's components.

I have no idea what "postmodern nihilistic, non-dialectical type criticism and a bliss-consciousness." but I doubt any of it applies to Scarlatti.  I think the factors you describe can be accounted for by the fusion of Italian Baroque, the Style Galant and the Spanish music (particularly the guitar music) Scarlatti was exposed to.  There is no other baroque composer who transcribes as idiomatically for the guitar as DS as many of his gestures were directly inspired by the guitar (you have to listen to Spanish baroque or earlier 16th century Vihuela music to get an idea what he was exposed to - the music, while there are some similarities, does not sound like the flamenco everyone is familiar with today).   Remember homophony - not counterpoint - was the characteristic invention of the Baroque period.  Only by looking to late 17th century / early 18th century German composers like Bach does one see the heavily contrapuntal style.  The Italian composers remained largely homophonic as did the French.

[Ten thumbs]

But if the pairs were intended as two parts of an entity then they would have appeared as one sonata rather than two, no?  I believe the composer intended some kind of flexibility here.  There are also occassionally "pairs" of three.  All in all not quite as sequenced or fixed as movements in a Haydn sonata.   

Well nowadays people do seem to like to hear individual movements! I can but quote Kirkpatrick:
'As I can testify from experience, the balancing and complementing relationship of the sonatas arranged in pairs greatly aids the player in extracting the full scope of their expressive content. Although it is evident that the sonatas of a pair were sometimes played separately, just as Bach sometimes separated his preludes and fugues, most of the later Scarlatti sonatas are obviously intentionally coupled in pairs.'
I think therefore that any purist would want to stick to this arrangement.

[bwv 1080]

The pairing is definitely there (K32 & 33, 208 & 209 for example) for many sonatas, but Scarlatti was far removed in time from particular notions of "the composers intention".  He

[FideLeo]

I think therefore that any purist would want to stick to this arrangement.

Purists would want to take a look at Scarlatti's autograph mss..  Alas, there is none surviving for any of his sonatas. 

[Ten thumbs]

The pairing is definitely there (K32 & 33, 208 & 209 for example) for many sonatas, but Scarlatti was far removed in time from particular notions of "the composers intention".  He

I think you are being rather wild in asserting that Bach along with the others composed without intention. Are you saying that K133 begins with the same melodic line as occurs repeatedly in the bass line of K132 accidentally?

[bwv 1080]

I am saying
A:  Some sonatas are definitely paired

B:  From the standpoint of performance practice it is OK to play one of the paired sonatas without the other

[Ten thumbs]

I am saying
A:  Some sonatas are definitely paired

B:  From the standpoint of performance practice it is OK to play one of the paired sonatas without the other

Fair enough. There are almost two hundred pairs and a few in threes. It would be nice to have an acknowledgement in the programme though.

[FideLeo]

Fair enough. There are almost two hundred pairs and a few in threes. It would be nice to have an acknowledgement in the programme though.

Even Thomas Roseingrave, an English contemporary of Scarlatti and chief promoter of his music in England, didn't make such an acknowledgement in his reprinted edition of Essercizi.  The fact that the original 1738 Essercizi, whose publication Scarlatti himself may have supervised, does not at all include many "pairs" of sonatas is interesting to say the least.

[Ten thumbs]

The thirty Essercizi were Scarlatti's earliest sonatas, numbered K1 to K30 by Kirkpatrick. They are written in a Baroque style that the composer later abandoned in favour of a more Classical manner after his move to Spain when the Princess Maria Barbara became Queen of that country. It is likely that during that change he came across new musical influences.

[FideLeo]

The thirty Essercizi were Scarlatti's earliest sonatas, numbered K1 to K30 by Kirkpatrick. They are written in a Baroque style that the composer later abandoned in favour of a more Classical manner after his move to Spain when the Princess Maria Barbara became Queen of that country. It is likely that during that change he came across new musical influences.

And yet the Essercizi may have been the most direct statement from the composer about his own work.  Later pieces are more of an enigma in that regard, since Kirkpatrick's chornology is dependent on stylistic analysis and not without its uncertainities. 

[Ten thumbs]

And yet the Essercizi may have been the most direct statement from the composer about his own work.  Later pieces are more of an enigma in that regard, since Kirkpatrick's chornology is dependent on stylistic analysis and not without its uncertainities. 

Yet the Essercizi are untypical of Scarlatti's work forming only a tiny minority of his sonatas. They actually form a single opus that was dedicated to the King of Portugal. Most of the other sonatas are known to have been written for the princess who was a very talented musician. They were copied out for her. Whilst the Classical style probably came to Spain from Italy around that time, there is no evidence that Scarlatti brought it with him.

[BachQ]

Perhaps a relation to postmodern nihilistic, non-dialectical type criticism and a bliss-consciousness.

More ........ more .........



We want more ..........

[bwv 1080]

More ........ more .........



We want more ..........

Go here:

http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/

[BachQ]

Go here:

http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/

Don't give Sean any more ideas ......... He'll flourish at that website ..........

[Ten thumbs]

Some research ought to be done into the character of Queen Barbara. After all, she played these sonatas and they must have been to her taste. I can't imagine her as a postmodern personality!