Author Topic: Mozart  (Read 187077 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Que

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 19930
  • Location: The Hague, Netherlands
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1340 on: December 05, 2021, 09:15:29 AM »
I disagree, finding cases of a ~romantic colouring in recordings interesting, or a hyper-romantic one like Yudina's much more fascinating than HIP.

Well, yes indeed.  :)
If you're interested in Mozart from a (hyper-)Romantic perespective, a HIP approach is - per definition - not going to work... Which is fine by me, don't get me wrong.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 62653
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, D. Scarlattii, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Martinů, Haydn, Henning
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1341 on: December 05, 2021, 09:54:01 AM »
I have to admit that Mozart's piano sonatas are for me his least interesting works. Their emotional and compositional range seem limited compared to most of his other output. Certainly limited compared to Beethoven.

That hasn't kept me from accumulating several sets, of which van Oort is my favorite overall.   I don't have anything from PBS outside of a couple of CDs he recorded for Gramola

Truly the piano sonatas as against LvB's are a comparison disadvantageous to “Wolferl”. I really like van Oort, as well.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Herman

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2832
  • there's something wrong with my brain
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1342 on: December 05, 2021, 10:00:31 AM »
Some of these Mozart sonatas are great music (I like the F major, 332 a lot), but there is a kind of Mozartean relentlessness in these works.

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 17879
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1343 on: December 05, 2021, 10:34:43 AM »
I disagree, finding cases of a ~romantic colouring in recordings interesting, or a hyper-romantic one like Yudina's much more fascinating than HIP.

I’m not sure about this, it’s an easy thing to say but the more I think about it the less I’m sure I know what it means. As far as colours are concerned, playing on a modern instrument is a huge limitation. You’re going to get way more colour from a fortepiano or a clavichord, by the nature of the instrument, the tones are less pure. And as far as romantic interpretation goes, well I really don’t have a clue about that, because rubato and ornamentation are a huge part of informed performance. Maybe the differentiator is to do with phrasing . . .

Have a listen to Schoonderwoerd play Herman’s favourite K332 and you’ll see what I mean - it’s on YouTube and IMO it’s fabulous.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2021, 10:39:21 AM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Online MusicTurner

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3172
  • Location: Cph
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1344 on: December 05, 2021, 10:49:09 AM »
Well, yes indeed.  :)
If you're interested in Mozart from a (hyper-)Romantic perspective, a HIP approach is - per definition - not going to work... Which is fine by me, don't get me wrong.

Well, among other things I wanted those views also represented here ...
« Last Edit: December 05, 2021, 10:51:18 AM by MusicTurner »

Online MusicTurner

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3172
  • Location: Cph
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1345 on: December 05, 2021, 10:59:09 AM »
I’m not sure about this, it’s an easy thing to say but the more I think about it the less I’m sure I know what it means. As far as colours are concerned, playing on a modern instrument is a huge limitation. You’re going to get way more colour from a fortepiano or a clavichord, by the nature of the instrument, the tones are less pure. And as far as romantic interpretation goes, well I really don’t have a clue about that, because rubato and ornamentation are a huge part of informed performance. Maybe the differentiator is to do with phrasing . . .

Have a listen to Schoonderwoerd play Herman’s favourite K332 and you’ll see what I mean - it’s on YouTube and IMO it’s fabulous.

Yes, phrasing is a very important aspect, the piano sound another. So far, I've heard a few samples of Schoonderwoerd's Adagio on my mobile, and the - very roughly described harp-like, or delicately unstable - sound of the instrument is not to my liking, but I'll try a bit more later too, on better equipment. It's certainly quite far from piano sound, as conventionally understood.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2021, 11:00:48 AM by MusicTurner »

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 17879
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1346 on: December 05, 2021, 11:30:27 AM »
Yes, phrasing is a very important aspect, the piano sound another. So far, I've heard a few samples of Schoonderwoerd's Adagio on my mobile, and the - very roughly described harp-like, or delicately unstable - sound of the instrument is not to my liking, but I'll try a bit more later too, on better equipment. It's certainly quite far from piano sound, as conventionally understood.

A tangent piano I think. You may not like it, but I think you will agree that it is more colourful than a Steinway, richer in overtones and with distinct timbres in the registers, there may be special stops even to make effects. But you referred to romantic colours, maybe there’s something unusual about that.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2021, 11:33:08 AM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline VonStupp

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 893
    • Amazon Public Profile
  • Location: Breadbasket, USA
  • Currently Listening to:
    Backtracking through my catalog
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1347 on: December 05, 2021, 12:13:18 PM »
Agreed. Haebler's is a fantastic set, subtle and intimate --- and has the advantage of being supercomplete.



And still with us at 92 years of age!

VS
“All the good music has already been written by people with wigs and stuff.”

Offline amw

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4917
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1348 on: December 05, 2021, 01:01:23 PM »
I'm not really sure what "romantic" Mozart sounds like. I turned to the sonata that's had the most appeal for later Romantic composers, K457, of which I have several recordings: Anderszewski, Arrau live, Badura-Skoda Astrée, Bezuidenhout harmonia mundi, Immerseel Vivarte, Koroliov, Kraus mono, Pires x2, Schnyder, Sokolov, Uchida live, Wirssaladze, Zacharias. One could argue Anderszewski is fairly "romantic" since he uses a more modern sense of tempo rubato and messes around with the dynamics, but Bezuidenhout does even more of that on a period instrument. Alternately perhaps Sokolov can be considered the most "romantic" since he plays slowly and favours beautiful piano tone, but Maxim Emelyanychev does the same thing on a period instrument (I didn't buy this recording but am aware of its existence). Or perhaps Uchida or Kraus could be considered the most "romantic" since both play very fast and dramatically with huge dynamic contrasts, therefore leaving the most unromantic performance as, well, Sokolov. (Or if anything other than rhythmically straight, moderate-tempo, dynamically-downplayed Mozart is "romantic", then the only HIP recording in my collection would be Pires Erato.)

These questions are even harder to answer when it comes to a sonata like K330; what would make a performance of such a sonata "romantic"?

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 32244
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1349 on: December 05, 2021, 01:43:32 PM »
I'm not really sure what "romantic" Mozart sounds like. I turned to the sonata that's had the most appeal for later Romantic composers, K457, of which I have several recordings: Anderszewski, Arrau live, Badura-Skoda Astrée, Bezuidenhout harmonia mundi, Immerseel Vivarte, Koroliov, Kraus mono, Pires x2, Schnyder, Sokolov, Uchida live, Wirssaladze, Zacharias. One could argue Anderszewski is fairly "romantic" since he uses a more modern sense of tempo rubato and messes around with the dynamics, but Bezuidenhout does even more of that on a period instrument. Alternately perhaps Sokolov can be considered the most "romantic" since he plays slowly and favours beautiful piano tone, but Maxim Emelyanychev does the same thing on a period instrument (I didn't buy this recording but am aware of its existence). Or perhaps Uchida or Kraus could be considered the most "romantic" since both play very fast and dramatically with huge dynamic contrasts, therefore leaving the most unromantic performance as, well, Sokolov. (Or if anything other than rhythmically straight, moderate-tempo, dynamically-downplayed Mozart is "romantic", then the only HIP recording in my collection would be Pires Erato.)

These questions are even harder to answer when it comes to a sonata like K330; what would make a performance of such a sonata "romantic"?

The very legitimate questions you raise here are exactly why I don't grapple with that problem. I listen to period instruments in Mozart's works because I prefer the often exotic sounds of period keyboards. This makes Mozart's treatment different from many other composers, and I believe it is because there are so many people doing Mozart that there is a pressure on keyboardists to be individual. How many people have done Pleyel, for comparative purposes? or Wölfl, Kozeluch or even Hummel? Or any other number of really fine keyboardists? No pressure. But Mozart has been done, or done in in many cases, by thousands.

But your earlier statement, which I mainly agree with,
Quote
I'm not really sure what "romantic" Mozart sounds like.
. I'm not either, but I can say that in all likelihood it is overly bright and resonant on the piano front! :o   As it happens, I am very much in agreement with the recent posters who are championing Haebler. Before I got into HIP/PI, all of my Mozart solo piano listening was confined to that box, which I got to replace Klein on Vox, my first Mozart. The reason was because in addition to her excellent playing, she shared a virtue with McCabe playing Haydn: her piano seemed to have almost no resonance, at least compared to what I was used to in the early 1990's.

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 62653
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, D. Scarlattii, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Martinů, Haydn, Henning
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1350 on: December 05, 2021, 01:54:21 PM »
Some of these Mozart sonatas are great music (I like the F major, 332 a lot), but there is a kind of Mozartean relentlessness in these works.

I gave 332 a fresh listen (as it chanced) a week ago. A most likable piece, indeed.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 17879
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1351 on: December 05, 2021, 02:25:15 PM »
Maybe all that can be said is that romantic piano playing relishes the distinctive properties of the big modern concert piano, the very wide dynamic range, the special timbres that these pianists know how to produce, the pleasure in the resonances and pedal effects. Some pianists do this more than others in Mozart. An example would be, maybe, Hamelin in 330. That would be my suggestion for a romantic 330.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2021, 02:28:11 PM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline calyptorhynchus

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 973
  • Location: Canberra, Australia
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1352 on: January 09, 2022, 09:01:02 PM »
I've just taken delivery of the Brautigem PI box set of Piano Concertos from Bis. When I opened the box guess what fell out...

Not any disks fortunately, but twelve separate CD booklets. How bizarre!

(The recordings are excellent!)