Author Topic: Mozart  (Read 187254 times)

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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1220 on: March 07, 2020, 03:33:19 PM »
Surprised to see no mention of Brautigam. I have and thoroughly enjoyed his Beethoven Sonata recordings and subsequently got the Mozart set, although I have not gotten around to listening.

I like the Brautigam set. I have the box of variations as well as the one of sonatas. Something I mentioned in a Haydn post somewhat holds true here too: I think he is very good in Beethoven because Beethoven benefits from a powerful touch, as well as from a lighter touch. But, and this is just my opinion, I think he overpowers Haydn and Mozart just a tad. So I guess, in works which were intended for fortepiano, he gets absolutely the most out of them. But in ones written for clavichord or harpsichord, which he plays on a fortepiano, they don't benefit from that.

I hope that makes some sense, it does to me, but it's hard to explain. In any case, he is a superb player, there is no technical feat which he seems unable to accomplish!

8)
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Offline Mookalafalas

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1221 on: March 07, 2020, 04:44:19 PM »
This version

Is it showing for you?  I notice the image seems to be more blue than green, but my copy is green.
However, I'd be surprised if the contents of the set were not in the 170 CD box, so the answer to your question is both no and yes.

  Ah, thanks. I have that box, actually, and like it a lot. The disk sleeves are blue, though, so that is the way I think of it (I threw the actual box away years ago).  I've been flirting with the idea of getting the "green monster" 170CD box (it is $111US, including shipping from Amazon Britain right now), but will probably give it a miss.   
It's all good...

Offline Que

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1222 on: March 08, 2020, 05:44:45 AM »
This version

Is it showing for you?  I notice the image seems to be more blue than green, but my copy is green.
However, I'd be surprised if the contents of the set were not in the 170 CD box, so the answer to your question is both no and yes.

I also have this this great set and supplemented it with the other recordings of the complete keyboard works from the Brilliant set. Got hold of the first edition of boxsets with separate CDs, and sold off the duplicating content of the Van Oort boxset.
Bottom line: the "extras" outside of the sonatas contain real gemms, and are well worth anyone's trouble.

I like the Brautigam set. I have the box of variations as well as the one of sonatas. Something I mentioned in a Haydn post somewhat holds true here too: I think he is very good in Beethoven because Beethoven benefits from a powerful touch, as well as from a lighter touch. But, and this is just my opinion, I think he overpowers Haydn and Mozart just a tad. So I guess, in works which were intended for fortepiano, he gets absolutely the most out of them. But in ones written for clavichord or harpsichord, which he plays on a fortepiano, they don't benefit from that.

I hope that makes some sense, it does to me, but it's hard to explain. In any case, he is a superb player, there is no technical feat which he seems unable to accomplish!

8)

I like the Brautigam too: very energetic and with panache. But the overpowering is more than a tad IMO.
His approach is ultimate too "pushy" and heavy handed, glossing over the elegance and witty aspects of Mozart. Got rid of it.

Hard to know what is what with PB-S, his career was so long he did things a few times over. But I have a 6 disk box set on Naive:


which is all the sonatas plus some other pieces, like the fantasias. It is MY favorite as well.

I also have this Lubimov set of 6 in a box set:


and am quite taken with it.

I do hope Naïve will reissue Badura-Skoda, hopes that have been hightened by the recent LvB release!  :)

I did admire Lubimov's muscial integrity and intelligence. But the (my) thruth is that the guy is not a natural Mozartian.... I found it oddly stiff and angular, and overthought, lacking in a light touch. You can tell Lubimov is great in Schubert. Got rid of this set too.

Q

PS Greetings from NYC
« Last Edit: March 08, 2020, 05:47:56 AM by Que »

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1223 on: March 08, 2020, 06:21:30 AM »


I did admire Lubimov's muscial integrity and intelligence. But the (my) thruth is that the guy is not a natural Mozartian.... I found it oddly stiff and angular, and overthought, lacking in a light touch. You can tell Lubimov is great in Schubert. Got rid of this set too.

Q


Fuck! I hate to think what you're going to say about Schoonderwoerd!

But more seriously, I don't where the idea that Mozart's sonatas are light and fluid came from (Slight feeling of deja vu here, when I joined this forum about 10 years ago I had a "discussion" along similar lines with Herman!)



PS Greetings from NYC

Jealous, slightly
« Last Edit: March 08, 2020, 06:24:01 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1224 on: March 08, 2020, 08:09:22 AM »
Fuck! I hate to think what you're going to say about Schoonderwoerd!

But more seriously, I don't where the idea that Mozart's sonatas are light and fluid came from (Slight feeling of deja vu here, when I joined this forum about 10 years ago I had a "discussion" along similar lines with Herman!)

Jealous, slightly

Or Sémerjian!  :o   Light touch, I can deal with, I don't care for heavy-handedness. However, the adjective 'fluid' means 'legato' to me, and that is simply not appropriate. Legato was nothing more than another ornament in Mozart and Haydn's day. Thus we find Beethoven reminiscing to Czerny  about having seen Mozart play (during his Vienna trip in 1787) and he "had a fine but choppy way of playing, no legato.". (Thayer, Vol. 1) I'm sure he was just like that, and I will venture the opinion that it is because he learned to play on a harpsichord, where detached notes were the norm. Legato only became the standard with Beethoven himself, who championed it as his style.

8)
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1225 on: March 08, 2020, 08:15:24 AM »
I also have this this great set and supplemented it with the other recordings of the complete keyboard works from the Brilliant set. Got hold of the first edition of boxsets with separate CDs, and sold off the duplicating content of the Van Oort boxset.
Bottom line: the "extras" outside of the sonatas contain real gemms, and are well worth anyone's trouble.

I like the Brautigam too: very energetic and with panache. But the overpowering is more than a tad IMO.
His approach is ultimate too "pushy" and heavy handed, glossing over the elegance and witty aspects of Mozart. Got rid of it.

I do hope Naïve will reissue Badura-Skoda, hopes that have been hightened by the recent LvB release!  :)

I did admire Lubimov's muscial integrity and intelligence. But the (my) truth is that the guy is not a natural Mozartian.... I found it oddly stiff and angular, and overthought, lacking in a light touch. You can tell Lubimov is great in Schubert. Got rid of this set too.

Q

PS Greetings from NYC

Well, we agree to disagree, as you see in my reply to Mandrake above. But like him, I am jealous you and your wife are in NYC. Hope you are having a great time! You really need to take an afternoon, if you have one, and go visit the Morgan Library Museum on 36th St & Madison Ave. Loveliest place in the City, IMO.

Anyway, I hope Naive will re-release that PBS/Mozart too. I bought this box in 2007, I had been hunting for it for several years, and the box came out and I immediately purchased it. It went OOP almost immediately. I simply can't understand their reasoning. Now that I have it ripped to FLAC, maybe I will sell it for $500...   :D

8)
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1226 on: March 08, 2020, 09:36:19 AM »
Or Sémerjian!  :o   Light touch, I can deal with, I don't care for heavy-handedness. However, the adjective 'fluid' means 'legato' to me, and that is simply not appropriate. Legato was nothing more than another ornament in Mozart and Haydn's day. Thus we find Beethoven reminiscing to Czerny  about having seen Mozart play (during his Vienna trip in 1787) and he "had a fine but choppy way of playing, no legato.". (Thayer, Vol. 1) I'm sure he was just like that, and I will venture the opinion that it is because he learned to play on a harpsichord, where detached notes were the norm. Legato only became the standard with Beethoven himself, who championed it as his style.

8)

I haven't tried Sémerjian's Mozart, but I love the Schubert!

Have you had a chance to explore de Cecco's clavichord Mozart set?

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/iHAIUt-Rutk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/iHAIUt-Rutk</a>
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1227 on: March 08, 2020, 12:03:21 PM »
I haven't tried Sémerjian's Mozart, but I love the Schubert!

Have you had a chance to explore de Cecco's clavichord Mozart set?

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/iHAIUt-Rutk" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/iHAIUt-Rutk</a>

Sémerjian is a good pianist: I have only heard a tiny bit of the Schubert, but I noted immediately (I was looking for it) that he played it much more legato than he did Mozart. Which is just as it should be. I would really like to hear him play some Haydn. AFAIK, he hasn't, but hey, it could happen.

I have not heard the de Cecco, I think you posted it in the clavichord thread at one time and I listened to it there, but I found no place that sold it at the time, and then forgot about it. I would like to find a copy for download, I'll try Presto again, maybe now they do.

8)
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1228 on: March 08, 2020, 12:43:24 PM »

What de Cecco does is unlike anyone else I've heard, my feeling is that he's rethought the music from scratch in order to fit it onto a clavichord. More so than Rampe.
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1229 on: March 08, 2020, 01:27:48 PM »
What de Cecco does is unlike anyone else I've heard, my feeling is that he's rethought the music from scratch in order to fit it onto a clavichord. More so than Rampe.

Interesting. The sort of thing you would hope all players would do, instead of playing prima vista.

8)
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1230 on: March 09, 2020, 10:18:15 AM »
I want you to buy it and tell me what you think, the 311 for example. It is just extraordinary, I've been listening to it over the past 24 hours and it is extraordinary.

He has a really distinctive range of clavichord effects -- the most striking is where he plays very staccato, and allows air to come between the notes. He takes everything very slowly. When he does a trill it's like music from Mars.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1231 on: March 09, 2020, 11:52:25 AM »
I want you to buy it and tell me what you think, the 311 for example. It is just extraordinary, I've been listening to it over the past 24 hours and it is extraordinary.

He has a really distinctive range of clavichord effects -- the most striking is where he plays very staccato, and allows air to come between the notes. He takes everything very slowly. When he does a trill it's like music from Mars.

I like my Mozart as music from Austria, though.  :D
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Offline amw

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1232 on: March 09, 2020, 11:07:23 PM »
What de Cecco does is unlike anyone else I've heard, my feeling is that he's rethought the music from scratch in order to fit it onto a clavichord. More so than Rampe.


Tried K576. Not impressed personally.

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1233 on: March 10, 2020, 01:30:40 AM »


Tried K576. Not impressed personally.

No I wasn’t at first, because it sounded deliberate, but I am now. It’s the least “pianistic” set of sonatas I’ve ever heard. That being said, I don’t like the 576 as much as the 311 and 310, so maybe we’re not so far apart! 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 02:42:40 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline calyptorhynchus

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1234 on: March 26, 2020, 11:44:25 PM »
I've started listening to Bart van Oort keyboard set, starting with the 4-handed piano sonatas.

I'm very pleased with the set, it was a no-brainer to get it as besides the solo sonatas I wanted the 4 handed ones and the miscellaneous pieces too. His fortepianos sound really well and his playing, and that of Ursula Dütschler, is excellent. :)

Offline vers la flamme

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1235 on: May 26, 2020, 01:46:01 PM »
Been really enjoying Mozart's string quintets lately; I have the Amadeus Quartet recording w/ Cecil Aronowitz on the second viola. Such a great recording. The Amadeus Quartet has a very distinct sound that works really well with this music. For some reason, it seems that the quintets blow his string quartets out of the water, but I think I need to spend more time with the quartets.

Also been listening to a great CD with Mitsuko Shirai singing 21 of Mozart's Lieder, w/ pianist Hartmut Höll. I never knew that Mozart wrote many Lieder, and discovering this music has deepened my appreciation of the composer.

There's still a lot of Mozart that I have yet to explore at all: the earlier piano concertos, the violin concertos, many of the symphonies (I'm mostly only familiar with the last 5), Figaro, Cosi fan tutte, etc. I am not always in such a receptive phase with his music, but I feel one coming on.

Offline amw

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1236 on: May 26, 2020, 02:23:15 PM »
Been really enjoying Mozart's string quintets lately; I have the Amadeus Quartet recording w/ Cecil Aronowitz on the second viola. Such a great recording. The Amadeus Quartet has a very distinct sound that works really well with this music. For some reason, it seems that the quintets blow his string quartets out of the water, but I think I need to spend more time with the quartets.
The quintets are generally considered more imaginative and characteristic, and are obviously larger in scale and ambition. I don't remember who but some writer pointed out that Mozart always turned to the string quintet after writing a string of string quartets—K174 immediately after the first published set of twelve obviously, K515 & 516 the year after the "Haydn" quartets and same year as the "Hoffmeister", K593 & 614 immediately after the "Prussian" quartets—and therefore brought to them all the new expertise in chamber music he'd gained. As well, they sort of crystallise all of the elements of the style he favoured at that given point into just one or two works.

Offline vers la flamme

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1237 on: May 28, 2020, 02:05:38 AM »
Why does Haydn have 10x as many pages of discussion as Mozart here on GMG...?

Offline Jo498

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1238 on: May 28, 2020, 02:52:13 AM »
Why does Haydn have 10x as many pages of discussion as Mozart here on GMG...?
1) Gurn
2) Haydn did compose more works.
2) Sometimes discussions get spread out over many different (usually more specific) threads whereas at other times they stick to a general thread.
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Offline Madiel

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1239 on: May 28, 2020, 03:31:57 AM »
Why does Haydn have 10x as many pages of discussion as Mozart here on GMG...?

He lived longer.

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