Mozart

Started by facehugger, April 06, 2007, 02:37:52 PM

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Roberto

#1540
My last post was years ago on this forum...
I recently made a big comparison about Mozart's symphonies and cycles. Mozart is my absolute favorite composer and I like his all symphonies very much.
I wrote an article about this comparison, the completed full cycles (where the full cycle performed by one conductor and one orchestra) and even period orchestras:
http://new.egalizer.hu/utazas-a-jupiterre/
I can't write articles in English but if you have google translate plugin in your browser, it might make readable translation (in case if you're interested in).
Detailed symphony and cycle listing:
https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=0291A3D882AB47CD&resid=291A3D882AB47CD%2123637&authkey=ANPzr1gPiG4aoEk&em=2

I have these cycles on CD:
- Böhm/BPO
- Pinnock/TEC
- Levine/WPO
- uncomplete Harnoncourt/Concentus Musicus (in the big Sony Harnoncourt box)
I listened to samples from other cycles on youtube also. I also have many other recordings of individual symphonies.

I was hardcore HIP fanatic some 10 years ago and I got to know Mozart on period instrument recordings. Now my taste changed and now I somehow started to like big band Mozart better. It is interesting that for me period instrument recordings are the "traditional" choice because that was my first serious encounter with Mozart and big band modern instrument performances are somehow more "recent" and "new" for me.
There are drawbacks on every sides so I think there is no one and only choice if somebody (like me) love Mozart's music.

The obvious choice on period instruments for me is Pinnock. That orchestra has excellent and detailed recorded sound, performances are first class. Balance between instruments is almost perfect. He uses fast tempos but without absurdities. Sometimes a little bit routine but on the whole this is a great set.
Harnoncourt's incomplete Concentus Musicus set is very interesting. I like it but I won't pick it as first choice. His orchestra is not the best. Not bad but The English Concert is more crisp and precise. Recorded sound is excellent, I like its detailed soundstage, I like his prominent horns. Harnoncourt is always excellent in the menuets. But as usual he has some strange and absurd tempo choice and other excentrities.
I listened to samples from Ádám Fischer's cycle (modern instruments but HIP) which many people like. IMHO it is not bad but I think it is much more about Ádám Fischer and less about Mozart...
I think the common problem in recent HIP and period instrument recordings that they feel that they have to said something new, something very personal, something different. This sometimes leads to absurd and grotesque performance. This is something that older "legendary" performers with modern orchestras never did.

My choice on modern instruments is Levine/WPO.
I think he almost always picked the best tempos, I like his all repeats (except in the slow movement in 40th) he feels this kind of music very well. He knew when to choose fast, when to choose slow tempos, how to phrase a musical line, what is this kind of music is all about.
However... Recorded sound is good but unfortunately wind instruments are usually too far away and there is too much echo on some recordings. I like detailed and transparent recorded sound because I want to hear every type of instrument. (I like the sound of prominent timpani too which big band performers usually washed out  :( ) I don't know why did they record this cycle in this way, sometime sounds better sometime worse but I miss more prominent winds. My top choice is still this cycle but that is a drawback.

I listened to samples from other modern instrument cycles also (Tate, Mackerras and Marriner) but based on the samples these aren't much better in transparency (except Marriner's Philips cycle). Mackerras was sometimes too rushed for me.

Böhm is the "classical" cycle. I didn't like Böhm's Mozart years ago but my taste changed. Not bad at all. Even oboes are more prominent on his recordings than on Levine's recordings.
I think the biggest drawback whith his cycle is the sometime very slow tempi. It's usually acceptable when I don't compare it to others but he is always too slow in menuets and sometimes but not always in the finales. Recorded sound is acceptable. He has the best "Linz" (even better than Levine for me) but last 4 symphony is not the pinnaccle of his cycle. (40th is extremely slow) Fortunately we have lots of recordings about last Mozart symphonies to choose.

DavidW

Quote from: Roberto on March 26, 2023, 08:32:54 AMIMHO it is not bad but I think it is much more about Ádám Fischer and less about Mozart...

I can't really agree with your take.  I've heard lots of Fischer, and complete recordings not samples.  His Haydn is quite different from his Mozart which are both very different from his takes on Mahler.  What I hear is not only an evolution in style, but very considered, thoughtful readings of each composer.  His extreme flexibility in approach really shows that it is about the composer and not the conductor.  In the liner notes to his Haydn cycle he actively mocked the HIP movement, and by the time he recorded Mozart he embraced many of the HIP traditions.

QuoteI think the common problem in recent HIP and period instrument recordings that they feel that they have to said something new, something very personal, something different. This sometimes leads to absurd and grotesque performance. This is something that older "legendary" performers with modern orchestras never did.

Sorry but I don't think this has anything to do with the performances, I think this is a you problem.  To your ears PI sounds grotesque and then like Dave Hurwitz you are blaming the performers for not playing to your aesthetic desire.  And too much with the sweeping generalizations.  There are PI recordings that play it safe, and plenty of traditional recordings that try to make Mozart sound like Schumann (i.e. grotesque for classical era).


San Antone

I echo the praise for Pinnock, Böhm, and Hogwood.  I also want to mention a set that only has four symphonies, but also has some concertos and sonatas.

Jos Van Immerseel


Roberto

Quote from: DavidW on March 26, 2023, 11:25:27 AMTo your ears PI sounds grotesque and then like Dave Hurwitz you are blaming the performers for not playing to your aesthetic desire.
I don't want to go into a PI/modern practice debate especially in English but maybe I wasn't clear. I didn't wrote that every PI sounds grotesque for me. If you read my post you may noticed that I wrote that balances in Pinnock's PI recording are almost perfect in my opinion.

Madiel

Quote from: Roberto on March 26, 2023, 12:24:51 PMI don't want to go into a PI/modern practice debate especially in English but maybe I wasn't clear. I didn't wrote that every PI sounds grotesque for me. If you read my post you may noticed that I wrote that balances in Pinnock's PI recording are almost perfect in my opinion.

I understood what you were saying. And I've sometimes thought the same thing (not about Mozart, more generally).

Musicians are told that to justify making a new recording they have to do something different. Rather than do something correctly.
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DavidW

Quote from: San Antone on March 26, 2023, 11:47:10 AMI echo the praise for Pinnock, Böhm, and Hogwood.  I also want to mention a set that only has four symphonies, but also has some concertos and sonatas.

Jos Van Immerseel



I've always liked Immerseel's take on the piano concertos, so I should check out his take on the symphonies.

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: Spotted Horses on March 25, 2023, 06:02:46 AMHarnoncourt/Concertgebouw changed my idea of Mozart. I was accustomed to stodgy string-heavy recordings like Bohm and Kripps, and all of a sudden I heard Mozart with prominent, aggressive horn, trumpets, percussion, and woodwinds that weren't overpowered by the string section. (Subsequently other conductors have gone the same way and Harnoncourt is not the outlier it was when it was first released and generally received contemptuous reviews.) The first recording I listened to (on LP) was No 35 and it blew me away.

Unfortunately these recordings don't seem to be available in a convenient edition (they were at one time) and you would have to add the separate set of recordings of the early symphonies with the CMW.



Of the other complete editions mentioned above, it seems like everyone loves the ones I hate. Hogwood's super complete set (with multiple recordings of symphonies where Mozart returned to touch up the orchestration). I find them boring and unengaging. For strict HIP I like Bruggen much better, but he didn't do all of them. Krips, Bohm, I find too tame. I haven't heard Pinnock, so I can't comment.

For sets which you can actually get, I'd suggest Mackerras/Prague on Telarc, or Fischer. Fischer has the exasperating feature that it omits Symphony No 32, probably justified by the idea that the single movement work is really an overture. Why couldn't they play it anyway?




The early symphonies tend to be wonderful little gems, I wouldn't miss them. Same for the early serenades and divertimenti.
I'll have to keep an eye out for the Telarc set.  Have you heard the set of Nos. 38-41 with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra?  I have that set and love it.  :)
Pohjolas Daughter

Spotted Horses

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on March 29, 2023, 05:53:02 AMI'll have to keep an eye out for the Telarc set.  Have you heard the set of Nos. 38-41 with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra?  I have that set and love it.  :)

I found that set a bit of a disappointment because the soundstage was too distant and reverberant for my taste.
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: Spotted Horses on March 29, 2023, 05:55:38 AMI found that set a bit of a disappointment because the soundstage was too distant and reverberant for my taste.
Ah, oh well.  To each his own.  :)

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

DavidW

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on March 29, 2023, 05:53:02 AMI'll have to keep an eye out for the Telarc set.  Have you heard the set of Nos. 38-41 with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra?  I have that set and love it.  :)

I think that the Scottish Chamber Orchestra set is slightly better than the Prague.  But the first is only the late ones, and the second is a complete cycle.

lordlance

I have asked this earlier but has no one noticed how odd the string tuning of Harnoncourt's Concentus cycle is? It's different from any other tuning - noticeably "rougher" (a result of just being different to our ears.)

Also it's strange how slow the tempi he observes for the First Symphony. Not very HIP. Maybe it's Harnoncourt just being Harnoncourt.
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Florestan

Quote from: lordlance on March 29, 2023, 11:33:28 AMAlso it's strange how slow the tempi he observes for the First Symphony. Not very HIP. Maybe it's Harnoncourt just being Harnoncourt.

Yes, I did notice that. Harnoncourt plays KV16 as if it were Beethoven. Suits the second movement to some extent, but not at all the others. My favorite KV16 are Boehm, Pinnock and Tate.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on March 29, 2023, 05:59:52 AMAh, oh well.  To each his own.  :)

PD
Quote from: DavidW on March 29, 2023, 06:14:58 AMI think that the Scottish Chamber Orchestra set is slightly better than the Prague.  But the first is only the late ones, and the second is a complete cycle.
I'll have to see what other recordings of which of his symphonies I have.  I suspect I have a hodge podge of various ones.

So, it looks like (according to one boxed set) that he wrote 45 complete symphonies?  If so, how many of those are juvenilia and perhaps not really worth acquiring and/or listening to.  When do you all think that he hit his stride (so to speak) in terms of symphonic writing?

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

DavidW

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on March 29, 2023, 12:21:16 PMWhen do you all think that he hit his stride (so to speak) in terms of symphonic writing?

PD

You're about to get a whole lot of different answers on that question.  For me I would say symphonies 25 and 29.  For most it is the Paris Symphony, which is #31.  I generally like Mozart once we hit the high KV 100s.  More casual fans won't tune in until the early to mid KV 300s.  Hardcore fans like Florestan or Gurn will listen to everything.

Brahmsian

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on March 29, 2023, 12:21:16 PMWhen do you all think that he hit his stride (so to speak) in terms of symphonic writing?


Symphony No. 38.  :D  ;)

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: DavidW on March 29, 2023, 12:28:50 PMYou're about to get a whole lot of different answers on that question.  For me I would say symphonies 25 and 29.  For most it is the Paris Symphony, which is #31.  I generally like Mozart once we hit the high KV 100s.  More casual fans won't tune in until the early to mid KV 300s.  Hardcore fans like Florestan or Gurn will listen to everything.
Different answers/responses are fine by me.  :)

Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 29, 2023, 12:30:29 PMSymphony No. 38.  :D  ;)
:)

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

DavidW


Madiel

When I decided to start going through Mozart's catalogue chronologically I admit to being surprised at just how quickly his music became enjoyable. Is the stuff he wrote at age 12 as good as the stuff he wrote as an adult? No. Is it pleasant to listen to? In my opinion, yes.
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Florestan

Quote from: DavidW on March 29, 2023, 12:28:50 PMHardcore fans like Florestan or Gurn will listen to everything.

You bet on it.  :D

I defy anyone to listen to the 2nd mvt of KV16 and not be amazed by how a child of 6 could have composed such deeply felt and deeply moving music.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Florestan

Quote from: Madiel on March 29, 2023, 12:39:52 PMWhen I decided to start going through Mozart's catalogue chronologically I admit to being surprised at just how quickly his music became enjoyable. Is the stuff he wrote at age 12 as good as the stuff he wrote as an adult? No. Is it pleasant to listen to? In my opinion, yes.

In my opinion too.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini