Mozart

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Gurn Blanston

Quote from: opus67 on May 22, 2009, 10:03:07 AM
Wolferl


Could anyone enlighten me on the use of the suffix -- assuming it is one -- 'erl.' There was Wolfgang's sister, Maria Anna, who was also known as Nannerl, but I don't recollect seeing the name Nann, or Nanngang even! But I do seem to recollect that letters among family members used Wolferl often. So was it a pet-name?

I will gladly bow to correction by our German speakers, but what I understand is that it would translate into "Dear little Wolfgang". If in fact it has a direct translation. :)

8)
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Opus106

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 22, 2009, 10:22:48 AM
I will gladly bow to correction by our German speakers, but what I understand is that it would translate into "Dear little Wolfgang". If in fact it has a direct translation. :)

8)

Ah, I see. Thanks, Gurn. :)

I wonder how it should work for Nannerl. Dear little... ?
Regards,
Navneeth

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: opus67 on May 22, 2009, 10:32:08 AM
Ah, I see. Thanks, Gurn. :)

I wonder how it should work for Nannerl. Dear little... ?

Marianne. Hey, I don't make 'em up, I just write 'em down... :D

8)
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Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)

Opus106

Regards,
Navneeth

karlhenning

Even in the English of roughly that era, "Nan" was an affectionate form of Ann(e).

Opus106

Never knew that. Danke. :)
Regards,
Navneeth

Joe Barron

#86
In German, the "erl" ending is a diminutive, much like the "y" in English, as in Teddy and Joey and Kathy.

Haydn's nickname was "Sepperl," which comes from Jo-seph. (Strange, in Englush "jo" seems to be the root of Joseph. In German, it seems to be the opposite.)

karlhenning

Quote from: opus67 on May 22, 2009, 11:26:09 AM
Never knew that. Danke. :)

Al vostro servizio!

Meanwhile . . . so who taught this Mozart guy, anyway?

QuoteJohann Georg Leopold Mozart (November 14, 1719 – May 28, 1787) was a composer, conductor, teacher, and violinist. Mozart is best known today as the father and teacher of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, and for his violin textbook Versuch einer gründlichen Violinschule.

Hmm . . . let's see . . . Mozart's father was a composer . . . Mozart was taught by his father . . . ergo, Mozart studied composition with a composer!

Count on us to state the obvious where needed . . . .

Joe Barron

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 22, 2009, 10:22:48 AM
I will gladly bow to correction by our German speakers, but what I understand is that it would translate into "Dear little Wolfgang". If in fact it has a direct translation. :)

8)

More like "Wolfy," which is the way it was presented in Amadeus.

Opus106

Quote from: Joe Barron on May 22, 2009, 11:29:17 AM
In German, the "erl" ending is a diminutive, much like the "y" in English, as in Teddy and Joey and Kathy.

Haydn's nickname was "Sepperl," which comes rom Jo-seph. (Strange, in Englush "jo" seems to be the root of Joseph. In German, it seems to be the opposite.)

Quote from: Joe Barron on May 22, 2009, 11:30:44 AM
More like "Wolfy," which is the way it was presented in Amadeus.

Ah...yes, it all makes sense now.
Regards,
Navneeth

karlhenning

Quote from: Joe Barron on May 22, 2009, 11:30:44 AM
More like "Wolfy," which is the way it was presented in Amadeus.

But not Wolfi-poo. That's right out.

Separately:

Quote from: the tabloid writer-in-training
1. Where, if at all, Mozart went to school before the age of 21
2. Where, if at all, he made detailed study of orchestration, harmony and instrumentation under a recognised/skilled teacher of the same.

1.  Mozart went to school, at home.  His father, a composer, conductor, violinist and pedagogue, taught him.

Let's all state the obvious again, that this has been common knowledge, and indisputible, for centuries.  The idea that stating such a ridiculous question, with any notion that it "undermines" the fact that Mozart was a world-class composer, is purest idiocy.

2.  The idiocy of this question is only a bit milder.  His tuition with his father, and his extensive experience performing on both violin and piano, are answer enough.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Joe Barron on May 22, 2009, 11:29:17 AM
In German, the "erl" ending is a diminutive, much like the "y" in English, as in Teddy and Joey and Kathy.

Haydn's nickname was "Sepperl," which comes rom Jo-seph. (Strange, in Englush "jo" seems to be the root of Joseph. In German, it seems to be the opposite.)

And Schubert's was "Schwammerl" which means, roughly, "Little Mushroom", presumably a reference to his stature. :D

8)

PS - Mozart's dog's name was Bimperl.... ;)
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karlhenning

Quote from: the tabloid writer-in-trainingWhat sort of answer do you want to such a sprawling mass of questions ? The best thing is to say we've had 200 years of Mozart propaganda.

There you have it:  the shovel, itself.

Joe Barron

#93
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 22, 2009, 11:30:17 AM
Al vostro servizio!

Meanwhile . . . so who taught this Mozart guy, anyway?

Hmm . . . let's see . . . Mozart's father was a composer . . . Mozart was taught by his father . . . ergo, Mozart studied composition with a composer!

Count on us to state the obvious where needed . . . .

Yeah, the whole argument about WAM's education is kind of stupid. To say someone needs a degree to do anything is a modern academic prejudice. It's also grossly illogical to conclude that Mozart can't have written anything because the attribution of some early pieces is in question. It's a blunt, bricklike reasoning that is more appropriate to conspiracy theories than to reasonable discourse: He didn't write some of the things attributed to him. Therefore he wrote nothing attrbuted to him.

All wood burns, claims Sir Bedevere. Therefore he concludes all which burns is wood. This is of course pure bull****. Universal affirmatives can only be partially converted. For example, all of Alma Kogan is dead, but only some of the class of dead people are Alma Kogan. Whoever Alma Kogan is.

There was a lot of false Haydn going around in the 18th century, too, but that was only because publishers knew Haydn's name sold, and it wouldn't have sold if he hadn't already been known as a composer. In my own lifetime, scholarship --- that is, real scholarship --- has discovered misattributions, but it has also left Haydn's real achievement intact. Yelling "fraud!" on the basis of a few course corrections is the height of irresponsibility and arrogance.

Gurn Blanston

Quote from: Joe Barron on May 22, 2009, 11:43:41 AM
Yeah, the whole argument about WAM's education is kind of stupid. To say someone needs a degree to do anything is a modern academic prejudice. It's also grossly illogical to conclude that Mozart can't have written anything because the attribution of some early pieces is in question. It's a blunt, bricklike reasoning that is more appropriate to conspiracy theories than to reasonable discourse: He didn't write some of the things attributed to him. Therefore he wrote nothing attrbuted to him.

All wood burns, claims Sir Bedevere. Therefore he concludes all which burns is wood. This is of course pure bull****. Universal affirmatives can only be partially converted. For example, all of Alma Kogan is dead, but only some of the class of dead people are Alma Kogan. Whoever Alma Kogan is.

There was a lot of false Haydn going around in the 18th century, too, but that was only because publishers knew Haydn's name sold, and it wouldn't have sold if he hadn't already been known as a composer. In my own lifetime, scholarship --- that is, real scholarship --- has discovered misattributions, but it has also left Haydn's real achievement intact. Yelling "fraud!" on the basis of a few course corrections is the height of irresponsibility and arrogance.

All true, Joe. Your last reference is rather unfortunate; however, how could you know? Robert's next assertion (which presumably hasn't made it into book form yet, so is on the back burner) is that Haydn didn't write any of his own music. He can wax poetic, and at length, on this topic. I've seen it. :)

8)
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Joe Barron

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 22, 2009, 11:49:19 AM
All true, Joe. Your last reference is rather unfortunate; however, how could you know? Robert's next assertion (which presumably hasn't made it into book form yet, so is on the back burner) is that Haydn didn't write any of his own music. He can wax poetic, and at length, on this topic. I've seen it. :)

8)

Yeah, I saw he was making the same case about Haydn, which is precisely why I mentioned it. Sort of a preemptive strike. the thing about Haydn is that he did study with someone. But then there was all that on the job traning. You write symphony after symphony, and eventually you get the hang of it.

Poetic? I don't know. More like hysterical, from what I've seen.

Herman

Quote from: Gabriel on May 21, 2009, 03:16:16 PM
And concerning the concept of "musical genius", I think that the fact of being born in the countryside, in an environment that was not precisely the best for developing a musical talent, and then to struggle in Vienna through the most difficult economical and social conditions for finally becoming the greatest composer of his time (with Mozart) is a Haydnian accomplishment that I can't qualify but of "genius" and that I admire as deeply as Mozart's almost unparalleled precocity.

I think so too.

I was also a little baffled by the contention that Haydn's best work was composed after WAM's death. However I'm just not getting involved in these kinds of discussions, or, rather, not with someone like JdP. N offense, life is just too short.

Joe Barron

Quote from: Herman on May 22, 2009, 11:56:44 AMI was also a little baffled by the contention that Haydn's best work was composed after WAM's death.

Nothing new here. It's a common prejudice. Mozart died in 1791. Haydn's last trios and piano sonatas, the London Symphonies the last great masses and oratorios were all written after that date. No controversy. The exception would be the string quartetes. The Op. 76 and 77 were written int he 1780s, I believe.

Someone on these boards once asked what musical event in history we would have like to be present for. For me, it would be the Vienna soirees wheer Haydn and Mozart and a couple of their friends got together and played string quartets.

Oh, wait, no --- Mozart couldn't have played viola in a string quartet. We can't name his teacher ...

Herman

Quote from: Joe Barron on May 22, 2009, 12:03:09 PM
Nothing new here. It's a common prejudice. Mozart died in 1791. Haydn's last trios and piano sonatas, the London Symphonies the last great masses and oratorios were all written after that date. No controversy. The exception would be the string quartetes. The Op. 76 and 77 were written int he 1780s, I believe.

Op. 76 and 77 were composed in the late 1790s, after Mozart's death. However Haydn's op 64 is from 1790-1 and op. 50 is from 1787. And of course there are numerous great symphonies and piano works from an earlier date.

ChamberNut

Quote from: Herman on May 22, 2009, 12:16:42 PM
Op. 76 and 77 were composed in the late 1790s, after Mozart's death. However Haydn's op 64 is from 1790-1 and op. 50 is from 1787. And of course there are numerous great symphonies and piano works from an earlier date.

Not to mention the fabulous Op. 20 quartets!