Mozart

[Joe Barron]

And of course there are numerous great symphonies and piano works from an earlier date.

True, bu I think the argument is not that Haydn did not write great music before Mozart died, but rather, that he reached his peak of perfection afterward. That is, he werote his best work. Of course, with the Haydn riches, who can be sure?

[Gurn Blanston]

Op. 76 and 77 were composed in the late 1790s, after Mozart's death. However Haydn's op 64 is from 1790-1 and op. 50 is from 1787. And of course there are numerous great symphonies and piano works from an earlier date.

Yes, I was going to mention Op 50 myself. It was the first Op that Haydn wrote after Mozart's "Haydn Quartets", and in fact there is no apparent debt to Mozart being repaid in these works. Vis-a-vis Mozart, they are on a totally different road. Apropos of nothing whatsoever, they are my favorite Haydn SQ's...

[Herman]

True, bu I think the argument is not that Haydn did not write great music before Mozart died, but rather, that he reached his peak of perfection afterward.

The London Symphonies are more monumental than symphonies from earlier phases but that doesn't necessaily make them more perfect, let alone more enjoyable.

And perhaps this is also a good point to ask what the big deal is. There is no doubt Haydn wrote all of his work after JS Bach died. Does that mean he really should thank JS Bach for what he composed? Haydn and Mozart inspired each other at some point, sure, but that doesn't mean their music sounds alike.

[Josquin des Prez]

Yes, I was going to mention Op 50 myself. It was the first Op that Haydn wrote after Mozart's "Haydn Quartets", and in fact there is no apparent debt to Mozart being repaid in these works. Vis-a-vis Mozart, they are on a totally different road. Apropos of nothing whatsoever, they are my favorite Haydn SQ's...

I never said Haydn was influenced by Mozart. I said Mozart set an higher standard which Haydn was forced to catch up to. 

[Josquin des Prez]

Nothing new here. It's a common prejudice. Mozart died in 1791. Haydn's last trios and piano sonatas, the London Symphonies the last great masses and oratorios were all written after that date. No controversy. The exception would be the string quartetes. The Op. 76 and 77 were written int he 1780s, I believe.

I'm not sure why you used the word prejudice when you are stating a simple fact here. BTW, the Opus 76 was written in 1799 and the Opus 77 in 1802.

[Josquin des Prez]

The London Symphonies are more monumental than symphonies from earlier phases but that doesn't necessaily make them more perfect, let alone more enjoyable.

Non sequitur. Nobody has ever said the London symphonies were more perfect because they were more monumental. I say that they were greater then any other symphony Haydn had written before, but not as great as the last symphonies of Mozart, and those, when compared to the model upon which they were based, namely, the first two Paris symphonies, demonstrate plainly that the younger composer was ahead of his mentor.

[ChamberNut]

It would have been interesting if Mozart had lived another 10+ years or even beyond, in terms of the string quartet medium.  I'm sure he would have returned to it, and probably to the string quintet medium too.

[knight66]

Gone but not missed forgotten.

I see Michel/Paul on an occasional basis and am in frequent contact, so certainly not missed or forgotten by me.

Mike

[Joe Barron]

I'm not sure why you used the word prejudice when you are stating a simple fact here. 

To say that Haydn's best work dates from the 1790s is not prroperly a fact. It is an opinion, though admittedly a common one.

[Gurn Blanston]

I'm not sure why you used the word prejudice when you are stating a simple fact here. BTW, the Opus 76 was written in 1799 and the Opus 77 in 1802.

Umm, 1796-97. Don't let Robert catch you out in a factual error like that, it will prove all his points, game, set, match!



----------------
Listening to:
Ingo Goritzki - CPE Bach Concerto in c for Oboe and Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro

[Gabriel]

Umm, 1796-97. Don't let Robert catch you out in a factual error like that, it will prove all his points, game, set, match!

Indeed.(*) The publication (at least of op. 77) was later because Haydn was trying to complete another set of six quartets. Alas, he just finished the two op. 77 and the two movements known as op. 103.

(*) Now I'm thinking of Lethe while writing this very useful word.

[Gurn Blanston]

Indeed.(*) The publication (at least of op. 77) was later because Haydn was trying to complete another set of six quartets. Alas, he just finished the two op. 77 and the two movements known as op. 103.

(*) Now I'm thinking of Lethe while writing this very useful word.

Indeed, indeed.

Op 76 - 1796-97 (that was what I was referring to, he was right about...)
Op 77 - 1799 (the last instrumental works that were totally completed)
Op 103 - most likely 1803.



----------------
Listening to: Boston Baroque / Pearlman - Bach Concerto #1 in F BWV 1046 4th mvmt

[Gabriel]

Indeed, indeed.

Op 76 - 1796-97 (that was what I was referring to, he was right about...)
Op 77 - 1799 (the last instrumental works that were totally completed)
Op 103 - most likely 1803.

Indeed, Gurn.

[karlhenning]

Oh, wait, no --- Mozart couldn't have played viola in a string quartet. We can't name his teacher ...

[Herman]

I say that they were greater then any other symphony Haydn had written before, but not as great as the last symphonies of Mozart, and those, when compared to the model upon which they were based, namely, the first two Paris symphonies, demonstrate plainly that the younger composer was ahead of his mentor.

Yes, that's what you say. You're rather deftly mixing up fact and opinion. Even the use of the term "mentor" for Haydn is rather tendentious.

[karlhenning]

Indeed—Newman has yet to let facts interfere with his fantasies.  Everyone else here understands the difference between facts and inane opinions.

edit:  Correction:  Almost everyone!

Most prudent emendation, viz.:

Yes, that's what you say. You're rather deftly mixing up fact and opinion. Even the use of the term "mentor" for Haydn is rather tendentious.

[karlhenning]

BTW, thanks to Herman for putting the Prussian quartets back on my radar . . . I've had the discs for a while, had listened to them on first picking them up, but haven't dug into them properly until this past week.

[Gurn Blanston]

BTW, thanks to Herman for putting the Prussian quartets back on my radar . . . I've had the discs for a while, had listened to them on first picking them up, but haven't dug into them properly until this past week.

Splendid works, aren't they, Karl? I think that no matter who composed them, he did a hell of a job.



----------------
Listening to:
La Real Cámara - G 117 Trio in d for 2 Violins & Cello 2nd mvmt - Minuetto con moto

[karlhenning]

I've had them in fairly heavy rotation these past few days, Gurn . . . .

[karlhenning]

. . . In broad terms, if one is new to first-hand experience with Newmanry (as opposed to hearsay) there appear to be two main classes of reaction: fairly instant dismissal . . .

Viz.:

Nothing to see here, folks. Move on.

One is gratified to have gotten it right, straight off, of course.