Mozart

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Marc

Quote from: Elgarian on April 02, 2010, 04:48:44 AM
So is the photo you posted! Health is very rapidly improving I'm happy to say. Cheers!
Me and my girl are always glad to be of any help. :D

Brahmsian


Teresa

#342
Quote from: Brahmsian on June 12, 2010, 06:53:52 PM
*bump*
From "Does an Avatar affect your perception of the poster"

Responding to Brahmsian: "Teresa, What makes you say he is the 'worst' composer, and 'boring'?  What are some of the works that you have listened to of Mozart?"

And responding to kishnevi: "Your clarification is a bit confusing.  Could you expand on what you mean by "musically he is a very bad composer"?  Don't understand what you mean by "musically".   Everything I can think of--inventiveness and flow of melody, use of harmonic structure and organization of his compositions, etc.--under that rubric makes him out to be a superior composer.  Are you using the term to signify something else, and if so, what is it?  Or do you mean those things, and simply hold a (very) minority opinion on his talents?"

What I mean is I studied Mozart in school so I know his writing is technically correct, however the arrangement of the notes and the melodies used are not musically pleasing to me and most are sickening sweet.  In addition Mozart uses repeats and repetition too much for my tastes. I am having a real challanging time with the English language today, perhaps I should have said: "musically he is a very bad composer, to me" as he is clearly not a bad composer to others.  Unlike technique, I believe musicality is very personal and unique in each individual listener. 

Here are some of Mozart's compositions that have been part of my library over the decades, currently I own ZERO compositions by Mozart:

Clarinet Concerto in A major, K. 622 (1791)
Clarinet Quintet in A major, K. 581 (1789)
Don Giovanni, K. 527 (1787)
Flute Concerto No. 1 in G major, K. 313 (1778)
Flute Concerto No. 2 in D major, K. 314 (1778)
German Dances
Horn Concerto No. 1 in D major, K. 412 (1791)
Horn Concerto No. 2 in E-flat major, K. 417 (1783)
Horn Concerto No. 3 in E-flat major, K. 447 (c. 1784–87)
Horn Concerto No. 4 in E-flat major, K. 495 (1786)
Marches
Piano Concerto No. 19 in F major, K. 459
Piano Concerto No. 20 in D minor, K. 466
Piano Concerto No. 21 in C major, K. 467
Piano Concerto No. 23 in A major, K. 488
Requiem Mass in D minor, K. 626 (completed by Franz Xaver Süssmayr after Mozart's death)
Serenade No. 6 ("Serenata Notturna") in D major, K. 239
Serenade No. 7 ("Haffner") in D major, K. 250
Serenade No. 9 ("Posthorn") in D major, K. 320
Serenade No. 10 for twelve winds and double bass ("Gran Partita") in B-flat major, K. 361
Serenade No. 11 for winds in E-flat major, K. 375
Serenade No. 12 for winds in C minor, K. 388
Serenade No. 13, "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" for String Quartet & Bass in G major, K. 525
Sinfonia Concertante for Violin, Viola and Orchestra K. 364 in E-flat major (1779)
Symphony No. 6 in F major, K. 43
Symphony No. 7 in D major, K. 45
Symphony No. 8 in D major, K. 48
Symphony No. 25 in G minor, K. 183 (173d B) (1773)
Symphony No. 28 in C major, K. 200 (1774)
Symphony No. 31 "Paris" in D major, K. 297 (K. 300a) (1778)
Symphony No. 35 "Haffner" in D major, K. 385 (1782)
Symphony No. 36 "Linz" in C major, K. 425 (1783)
Symphony No. 38 "Prague" in D major, K. 504 (1786)
Symphony No. 40 in G minor, K. 550 (1788)
Symphony No. 41 "Jupiter" in C major, K. 551 (1788)
Violin Concerto No. 1 in B-flat major, K. 207 (1775)
Violin Concerto No. 2 in D major, K. 211 (1775)
Violin Concerto No. 3 in G major, K. 216 (1775)
Violin Concerto No. 4 in D major, K. 218 (1775)
Violin Concerto No. 5 in A major, K. 219 (1775)
Rondo for violin and orchestra in B-flat major, K. 269
Rondo for violin and orchestra in C major, K. 373
Die Zauberflöte, K. 620 (1791)

There are thousands of composer's I like considerable better.  That is one nice things about Classical music, the gigantic array of music to choose from.  One only needs to listen to what one likes.

Elgarian

Quote from: Teresa on June 12, 2010, 07:39:32 PM
There are thousands of composer's I like considerable better.  That is one nice things about Classical music, the gigantic array of music to choose from.
No one I think would sensibly argue with what you say here, which is a clear statement about you and your personal taste. The problems arise when we project our personal feelings 'outwards', as if they were attributes of the object under discussion, rather than attributes of ourselves. (It calls to mind the term in literary criticism called 'the pathetic fallacy', whereby the state of mind of a writer is projected onto what he's writing about - such as in phrases like 'the cruel sea'.)

'I dislike Mozart's music' (which tells us something about your personal taste) means something completely different to 'Mozart is a bad composer' (which seems to be telling us something about Mozart, but which, as you've explained above, is actually a projection of your personal taste). It's the second statement that causes the trouble, not the first.

Szykneij

Quote from: Elgarian on June 13, 2010, 12:55:54 AM
No one I think would sensibly argue with what you say here, which is a clear statement about you and your personal taste. The problems arise when we project our personal feelings 'outwards', as if they were attributes of the object under discussion, rather than attributes of ourselves. (It calls to mind the term in literary criticism called 'the pathetic fallacy', whereby the state of mind of a writer is projected onto what he's writing about - such as in phrases like 'the cruel sea'.)

'I dislike Mozart's music' (which tells us something about your personal taste) means something completely different to 'Mozart is a bad composer' (which seems to be telling us something about Mozart, but which, as you've explained above, is actually a projection of your personal taste). It's the second statement that causes the trouble, not the first.

Very well said.

Another example:

Teresa is a bad poster. She's the worst poster on the board.

vrs.

I generally don't agree with the posts Teresa makes.
Men profess to be lovers of music, but for the most part they give no evidence in their opinions and lives that they have heard it.  ~ Henry David Thoreau

Don't pray when it rains if you don't pray when the sun shines. ~ Satchel Paige

Elgarian

Quote from: Szykniej on June 13, 2010, 04:18:25 AM
Another example:
Teresa is a bad poster. She's the worst poster on the board.
vrs.
I generally don't agree with the posts Teresa makes.
A perfect illustration. Thank you!

Teresa

Quote from: Elgarian on June 13, 2010, 12:55:54 AM
No one I think would sensibly argue with what you say here, which is a clear statement about you and your personal taste. The problems arise when we project our personal feelings 'outwards', as if they were attributes of the object under discussion, rather than attributes of ourselves. (It calls to mind the term in literary criticism called 'the pathetic fallacy', whereby the state of mind of a writer is projected onto what he's writing about - such as in phrases like 'the cruel sea'.)

'I dislike Mozart's music' (which tells us something about your personal taste) means something completely different to 'Mozart is a bad composer' (which seems to be telling us something about Mozart, but which, as you've explained above, is actually a projection of your personal taste). It's the second statement that causes the trouble, not the first.

I am sorry for the misunderstanding, however whither one likes a composer or believes a composer is not technically or musically a good composer are separate things.

In the case of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart:

  • I do not like Mozart's music. (Personal opinion based on listening to his compositions)
  • I believe he is technically a very good composer as he follows the rules of composition.  Although IMHO he uses too much repetition and repeats.   Also it is important to note some of my favorite composers are NOT technically good composers as they purposely break most of the rules of composition. (Personal observation based on composition studies) 
  • I also believe he is MUSICALLY the worst composer I have ever heard in my life.  Just because one follows the rules of composition DOES NOT guarantee a satisfactory outcome musically.   There are composers whose music I hate who are musically good composers.  So personal likes and dislikes are different than personal perception of the musicality of a composer. (Personal opinion based on how he applies his craft)

Hope this helps to clarify. 

Scarpia

Quote from: Teresa on June 13, 2010, 04:23:17 PM
I am sorry for the misunderstanding, however whither one likes a composer or believes a composer is not technically or musically a good composer are separate things.

In the case of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart:

  • I do not like Mozart's music. (Personal opinion based on listening to his compositions)
  • I believe he is technically a very good composer as he follows the rules of composition.  Although IMHO he uses too much repetition and repeats.   Also it is important to note some of my favorite composers are NOT technically good composers as they purposely break most of the rules of composition. (Personal observation based on composition studies) 
  • I also believe he is MUSICALLY the worst composer I have ever heard in my life.  Just because one follows the rules of composition DOES NOT guarantee a satisfactory outcome musically.   There are composers whose music I hate who are musically good composers.  So personal likes and dislikes are different than personal perception of the musicality of a composer. (Personal opinion based on how he applies his craft)

Hope this helps to clarify.

The only thing it clarifies is how deeply you have fallen into the trap that Elgarian described.   

Scarpia

Quote from: James on June 13, 2010, 05:12:16 PM
QFT  8)

Now if we could only find a third we could christen the three stooges of the board.   :P

Florestan

Quote from: Teresa on June 13, 2010, 04:23:17 PM
Hope this helps to clarify.
There's nothing to clarify. You dislike Mozart's music, period. It is a personal, "gut" feeling that has nothing objective, your crippled attempt to rationalize it notwithstanding. Please don't delude yourself into thinking that musical likes or dislikes can be quantified.

Besides, as it has been repeatedly pointed out to you, too much hate will kill you in the end.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Elgarian

#350
Quote from: Teresa on June 13, 2010, 04:23:17 PM
1. I do not like Mozart's music. (Personal opinion based on listening to his compositions)

3. I also believe he is MUSICALLY the worst composer I have ever heard in my life.
I think Scarpia is right about the trap you're stuck in. Your point no. 3 is an example of the 'pathetic fallacy' I was talking about earlier, in which your own feelings are projected outwards onto the music, instead of being recognised as arising within yourself. Point 3 adds nothing of substance to what you said in point 1. All it achieves is to emphasise your dislike in the particular way that the pathetic fallacy encourages.

The difficulty is that many people find Mozart's music to have positive qualities very different to the negative ones you describe, and these positive qualities are communicable. I gave an illustration some time ago in another thread to demonstrate the characteristically inventive way he writes his music to express a multiplicity of feelings almost simultaneously in his operas. I used one of Fiordiligi's arias in Cosi as an example. I'll quote it here:

"One of the things that I find so attractive about the [Mozart] operas is how much of the feel of real life is in them - that is, the complex ever-changing feeling of life-as-we-live-it. It doesn't matter how daft the plot is; what counts is what the music tells us about the changing situations. I'm thinking, for example, of Fiordiligi's 'Like a fortress' aria, where she's adopting such a noble, admirable stance, and the music is taking us along with this so wonderfully, except ... there are little orchestral passages that seem to cast doubt on all this; that there's something a bit over the top about all this nobility, which may not be quite what it seems. That's the sort of thing I mean - that mix of the noble with the absurd; the idea that we're never so vulnerable as when we're seeming the opposite. No one expresses those little fleeting moments, musically, like Mozart."

This kind of boundless creativity is to be found throughout the great Mozart operas - that is, the representation of a wide diversity of feelings by presenting a parallel diversity of musical ideas almost simultaneously. You may not like it; you may not think there's any value in doing this sort of thing with music. But to describe what Mozart is doing as 'musically bad' suggests not that you've perceived it and rejected it, but rather that you haven't actually perceived it in the first place.

Well, that's regrettable but understandable. That failure of perception is something we're all prone to, especially with music we dislike. But that's why it's so important to recognise when we're trapping ourselves in pathetic fallacies.

karlhenning

Quote from: Elgarian on June 14, 2010, 08:35:57 AM
. . . I gave an illustration some time ago in another thread to demonstrate the characteristically inventive way he writes his music to express a multiplicity of feelings almost simultaneously in his operas. I used one of Fiordiligi's arias in Cosi as an example. I'll quote it here:

"One of the things that I find so attractive about the [Mozart] operas is how much of the feel of real life is in them - that is, the complex ever-changing feeling of life-as-we-live-it. It doesn't matter how daft the plot is; what counts is what the music tells us about the changing situations. I'm thinking, for example, of Fiordiligi's 'Like a fortress' aria, where she's adopting such a noble, admirable stance, and the music is taking us along with this so wonderfully, except ... there are little orchestral passages that seem to cast doubt on all this; that there's something a bit over the top about all this nobility, which may not be quite what it seems. That's the sort of thing I mean - that mix of the noble with the absurd; the idea that we're never so vulnerable as when we're seeming the opposite. No one expresses those little fleeting moments, musically, like Mozart."

Excellent observations, Alan.  And we are apt to forget this in our day, but this was outstanding mastery and a deepening of the genre in Mozart's day.

Scarpia


My favorite example along that vein is La ci darem la mano, from Don Giovanni.  It is an example of Mozart not following the rules, but making his own rules.  It was customary at the time for Arias to be set pieces where characters commented on their feelings, separate from the dramatic action.  Mozart places Zerlina's submission to Don Giovanni's seduction in the middle of the aria.  Don Giovanni's charming solicitations, Zerlina's lamenting of her own weakness, and her ecstasy at having accepted Don Giovanni's offer are all deliciously painted in the music.  A wonderful piece.




Scarpia

Quote from: James on June 14, 2010, 09:15:28 AMAnd you're completely entitled to this view & stating it. Love it. ;D

Teresa is also on record as saying the J.S. Bach is the worst composer of all time.  (Evidently there can be more than one worst composer of all time.)  Interesting to what lengths you have to go to find someone you can agree with concerning Mozart.

karlhenning

James is not shy of navel-gazing indulging in pathetic fallacy, himself ; )

Scarpia

Quote from: James on June 14, 2010, 09:37:17 AM
Oh and there is PLENTY of people who dont give 2 shits about him, believe me.

The incorrect grammar and vulgar language certainly further your argument.

There are plenty of people who are not interested in Mozart.  But that does not prevent them from understanding that he was a composer of rare talent that produced a lot of extraordinary music.

Franco

Ah, the cruel truth is revealed of the Mozart Haters Underground.  Plenty - plenty, I tell you! - of people HATE & CAN'T STAND his music. 

After all this time, Mozart can still sitr the pot.

Scarpia

Quote from: James on June 14, 2010, 10:13:22 AM
No, it's not that .. it's just certain fans of him are so easily riled up & shocked when people express another view. That's all we're really seeing here.

Quite so, probably we are to blame for responding at all to your blathering on about Mozart.  But you volunteer to be the site punching bag and it is hard to resist sometimes.

Herman

Quote from: Teresa on June 13, 2010, 04:23:17 PM
I am sorry for the misunderstanding, however whither one likes a composer or believes a composer is not technically or musically a good composer are separate things.

In the case of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart:

  • I do not like Mozart's music. (Personal opinion based on listening to his compositions)
  • I believe he is technically a very good composer as he follows the rules of composition.  [...]
    • I also believe he is MUSICALLY the worst composer I have ever heard in my life.  Just because one follows the rules of composition DOES NOT guarantee a satisfactory outcome musically. 

      Hope this helps to clarify.
Teresa, I'm perfectly happy with your not liking Mozart. More pie for me!

However, your idea that WAM just followed the current rules and consequently was not really groundbreaking, is, I'm sorry, historically incorrect.

1) Everybody thinks, oh that's just a sonata form, it's just paint by numbers. In reality sonata form was not an established form in Haydn and Mozart's time. They were experimenting with the form, which was only taken as a holy mold after their time, by composers we have forgotten about (except Gurn and GAbriel, of course).

2) Mozart was a rather controversial composer (unlike Salieri and other composers we have mostly forgotten) for the very reason he was f*cking with the formula (to quote one of the Beach Boys).

3) Mozart's catalogue lists some 625 compostions. About half of them, or even more, are fomulaic Gebrauchsmusik. Kid had to make a living. However, his major compositions, and there are so many of them, all are unusual, strange, and disturbingly intense. And never formulaic.[/list]

Franco

Fantastic!  A Mike Love reference in a Mozart thread.