Mozart

[knight66]

James,

I told you to stop the personal attacks. Whether or not you are incapable of discerning logical argument from some kind of evil determination to thrust a viewpoint at you; you are going to have to either take a break from responding, or alter your tone so as not to be offensive.

Consider this as a formal warning. I have also deleted your shoddy remarks about Karl.

BTW, do not alter this post, if you do I will systematically delete 10 of your posts at random.

Knight

In case you should miss the action I have taken James, I quote my remarks here.

Knight

[Scarpia]

No, a person can say they do not like Mozart's music.  It just when they go from there to saying Mozart is one of the worst composers, they cross over into uneducated, or so pathetically self-absorbed to think that only what they like is good.

I think that sums it up.  Maybe it is time to stop feeding the troll.

[Elgarian]

If I disliked Mozart and saw a thread titled "Mozart", I wouldn't go near it.

There are times, Dave, when you make posts that are close to being perfect.

[Elgarian]

Maybe it is time to stop feeding the troll.

Well said. Enough's enough.

[knight66]

And no matter how you want to slice and dice it, when people state they don't care for the sort of 18th century music he produced that's not abusive either. fans have to remember that, so need to for them to say silly stuff like "you're trapped", "you have short-comings" etc etc

You don't seem to be able to read. It is not about whether people like things....the 'so what' to that has been repeated several times. No one has disputed the issue of likes and dislikes.

There has been an attempt to sort out the wheat from the chaff of knowledge or opinion. The knowledge side of the argument seems only to attract abuse from you and the opinion side gets your best ya boo sucks. So really, best leave this stage altogether; as your disintigrating costume exposed your backside some time ago.

Knight 

[Philoctetes]

Unfortunately, there's no particular evidence that it is by Mozart.  It was assumed to be, largely because people thought it was too good to be by anyone else.

FINE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDKdrQgp_q0&feature=related

[Scarpia]

In all fairness to Teresa, she first wrote (my bold)

What I mean is I studied Mozart in school so I know his writing is technically correct, however the arrangement of the notes and the melodies used are not musically pleasing to me and most are sickening sweet.  In addition Mozart uses repeats and repetition too much for my tastes. I am having a real challanging time with the English language today, perhaps I should have said: "musically he is a very bad composer, to me" as he is clearly not a bad composer to others.  Unlike technique, I believe musicality is very personal and unique in each individual listener.

which no one could fairly dispute.  It was her "clarification" which did anything but clarify, which got people's hackles up.  That was where the demented distinction between a "technically good" composer and a "musically good" composer was introduced and the to me was dropped..

[Drasko]

FINE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDKdrQgp_q0&feature=related

That is some of my favorite Mozart. Fine choice son of Poeas.

[Scarpia]

That is some of my favorite Mozart. Fine choice son of Poeas.

Yes, when Mozart put's aside the gallant pleasantries and writes a proper fugue it is something special.  The Kyrie from the Requiem I consider to be as good a piece of music as has ever been written.

[Scarpia]

It is easy to turn things up with the search function.  Another quote from Teresa:

As I see it pleasure and greatness as two different things.  I love orchestral music written from the Romantic period forward and many people misunderstand the pleasure I get from such music means I don't think composers of previous eras wrote great music.  And nothing can be further from the truth!  For example I derive no pleasure from the works of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart but I believe he was a great composer and indeed even influenced many of the composers I do love, yet for me I cannot stand his music.  But my inability to derive pleasure from Mozart's music does not lower the stature of his greatness in any way.

from this thread
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,8161.msg199054.html#msg199054


Who could disagree with that? 

[Philoctetes]

It is easy to turn things up with the search function.  Another quote from Teresa:

from this thread
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,8161.msg199054.html#msg199054


Who could disagree with that?

Gould?
Callas?

http://blogcritics.org/music/article/why-mozart/

[knight66]

On another thread recently I mentioned that over the years I had encountered a number of orchestral players who hated Mozart. I remembered about Callas, she hardly performed any Mozart. But the Gould I did not know about.

As far as composers are concerned, I often think their ire is in a special category. Britten detested Brahms, Stravinsky loathed various folk, ditto Wagner, who was denigrated by Debussy and so on. But when you are writing music, I think the path you take means you have to shrug off alternatives and focus on your own path as being the right path. That has sometimes meant composers have reviled one another.

But because Debussy thought so little of Wagner, does it make either of them lesser composers? No.

Mike

[karlhenning]

As far as composers are concerned, I often think their ire is in a special category. Britten detested Brahms. . . .

And that was a reversal!  As a student, he adored Brahms.

[knight66]

Occasionally in later life he even played Brahms and programmed him at Aldeburgh.

Mike

[karlhenning]

Your larger point is intact; one must allow artists their likes and dislikes, which in any event is apt to change over time.

[Teresa]

Teresa is also on record as saying the J.S. Bach is the worst composer of all time.  (Evidently there can be more than one worst composer of all time.) ...

No there can be only ONE worst composer and Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart has earned that right. 

Here is what I said in the Bach is the very best composer thread:

"I voted decidedly not , I do think Bach is technically a good composer, I just cannot tolerate listening to most of his music.  I find none of it enjoyable with the exception of Leopold Stokowski's orchestration of Toccata and Fugue in D Minor and Jethro Tull's jazzed-up version of Bouree.  I hate the Art of the Fugue, the Brandenburg Concertos, the Harpsichord Concertos, the Cantatas, the Orchestral Suites and just about everything else Bach composed.  I can easily name 1,000 composers I like better! "

Another of my comments further down in the thread:

Well, as you gathered I like Bach a tiny bit more than Mozart.  Hate is the only word I can find to adequately describe how I feel about their music though, dislike is not strong enough.  As an example I merely dislike the music of Schumann and Schubert. 

On the positive side, there are thousands of Classical composers I dearly love.

Here is the tally so far in the voting

Bach is the very best composer Right?
Of course. 13 (25%)
Could be. 8 (15.4%)
Decidedly not. 16 (30.8%)
Sometimes. 7 (13.5%)
Bananafanamomana 8 (15.4%)

[Herman]

I think some people have ingested internet subjectivity so deep they cannot see a difference between saying "I do not like Mozart's music" and "Mozart is the worst composer ever", especially when you add specious "technical' reasons for the latter statement.

I do not understand why Teresa moved form the statement that was just dug up from a previous thread, to the strange junior-high dismissal on this thread, but it is no move forward n terms of quality of thinking and expression.

There are tons of composers  -  some of the first rank  -  I have no appetite for. That's just because they are doing something I do not need or like at that point. One of my hobbies, perhaps annoying to other folks, is pointing out that people are mistaken in regarding Beethoven as the alpha and omega of CM. I'm living proof that a classical music lover can function healthily without listening to Beethoven more than once a year. But that doesn't mean I think he's a bad composer. That would be completely silly, and also somewhat philistine.

The idea espoused by James that older music kind of fades and becomes fuddy duddy because of more recent schools of composing is equally philistine, even though it sounds cool. Some people overdo it, but one of the great things of music, visual art, literature is that in a relentlessly now world it gives us access to the past in a visceral way.

[Teresa]

If I disliked Mozart and saw a thread titled "Mozart", I wouldn't go near it.

Neither would I! I only arrived here as my comment was "bumped" from the Does an Avatar affect your perception of the poster? thread by Brahmsian

Here is the post I responded to:
Quote from: Scarpia on June 08, 2010, 12:37:13 PM
Mozart is a really, really bad composer. 

--------------------

Ok, let's see what happens.   

My response:

Works for me and it is nice to have such an authority figure confirming! 
Although personally I think Mozart is a very good composer, just too boring for my tastes.   

[Teresa]

No, a person can say they do not like Mozart's music.  It just when they go from there to saying Mozart is one of the worst composers, they cross over into uneducated, or so pathetically self-absorbed to think that only what they like is good.

There are many composers I do not like that I believe are good composers.  Indeed I believe that Mozart is technically a very good composer, I just FIRMLY believe that musically he is the absolute worst, bottom of the barrel.  For example I believe Gerald Finzi is an excellent composer I just happen to not like his music.  We are discussing two different things, talent and personal enjoyment, this seems to have went over your head completely!   

[Franco]

There are many composers I do not like that I believe are good composers.  Indeed I believe that Mozart is technically a very good composer, I just FIRMLY believe that musically he is the absolute worst, bottom of the barrel.  For example I believe Gerald Finzi is an excellent composer I just happen to not like his music.  We are discussing two different things, talent and personal enjoyment, this seems to have went over your head completely! 

Is English not your first language?